ChrisAllonby Posted 26 December , 2005 Share Posted 26 December , 2005 Here's a photo of an ancestor of mine. I'm trying to identify him and it would be a great help if anything could be deduced from his uniform. Any help or advice gratefully received. Thanks, Chris Allonby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 26 December , 2005 Share Posted 26 December , 2005 Chris, It looks like the photo hasn't made it onto the post. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAllonby Posted 26 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 December , 2005 Chris, It looks like the photo hasn't made it onto the post. Ken Sorry, It was too big to start with. I've cropped it a bit. I think it's there now. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 26 December , 2005 Share Posted 26 December , 2005 (edited) The cap badge look like the King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment). What else do you know about him? If you post anything at all that you have, someone may be able to guide you to sources of additional information. Ken Edited 26 December , 2005 by Ken Lees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 26 December , 2005 Share Posted 26 December , 2005 King`s Own? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAllonby Posted 26 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 December , 2005 Royal Lancaster Regiment - In that case the photo could be of this person: Lance Corporal John Park 21637 Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) Born, Ulverston. Enlisted, Ulverston. Died of wounds (unspecified). Formerly served as 12644 R.Lancs. Regt. www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/certificate.aspx?casualty=504602 I had it down to one of three great uncles who served in WWI. Does the picture show anything else to confirm this? Thanks, Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 26 December , 2005 Share Posted 26 December , 2005 The fact that his uniform looks new and that he has no other badges on - service stripes, rank, trade badges etc) suggests to me that it may have been taken early in his service, which doesn't prove anything but suggests you might be on the right track. Regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 26 December , 2005 Share Posted 26 December , 2005 the belt ( orwc) makes him a pre war regular. ( chris stands back and waits to be corrected) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 26 December , 2005 Share Posted 26 December , 2005 Chris, Definatley "Kings Own(Royal Lancaster Regiment)" as other members have pointed out. Harribobs, Sorry the belt was dished out to all and sundry, my Northumberland Fusilier photo's seem to show it being worn by members of the Garrison Battalions. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 26 December , 2005 Share Posted 26 December , 2005 Harribobs, Sorry the belt was dished out to all and sundry, my Northumberland Fusilier photo's seem to show it being worn by members of the Garrison Battalions. Graham. i've only seen them on regulars myself, but i wouldn't bet money on being right they must have had a fair stock of them then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAllonby Posted 26 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 December , 2005 Gentlemen, Thanks for your help so far. The possibility of John Park being a pre-war regular is fascinating, and a complete surprise if it's true. The assumption had been that he joined up soon after the outbreak. How can the possibility of him being a regular be confirmed? Regards, Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 26 December , 2005 Share Posted 26 December , 2005 chris my assumption was based on the belt clasp and my experience in other regiments, i wouldn't base too much on it before others have chance to comment cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 26 December , 2005 Share Posted 26 December , 2005 His King's Own number looks more like a service battalion number to me....though he could well have discharged pre-war and rejoined. The Medal Rolls should indicate which KO battalion he was attached to during his service. These can be obtained from National Archives through the numbers on the Medal Index Cards. He has two Medal Index Cards...was he decorated? http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=5 http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=5 Sometimes Soldiers Died will give some indication of battalion from a man's number. In the number range 12600 to 12700 there were 16 men who died. Of these there were 6 men in the 6th Battalion, 6 men in the 7th Battalion, 1 man in the 1st Battalion, 1 man in the 2nd Battalion and 1 man in the 1/4th Battalion. The 6th and 7th were service battalions. http://www.1914-1918.net/kingsown.htm CWGC indicates he was with the 56th Battalion of the Machine Gun Corps when he died. Interestingly 21638 Private Richard Wright of the Machine Gun died 10 March 1917. CWGC advises that his unit was the Training Centre....may give some indication of when your man actually joined the MGC? Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAllonby Posted 27 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2005 Tim, Thanks for the additional information. I was not aware that he was decorated, but I'll obtain the medal cards. A question - and forgive my ignorance on this; what precisely is a "service battalion"? If you could give me a definition, perhaps with some additional relevant facts, I'll add it to Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia, which currently doesn't have an article/definition on "service battalion". Thanks, Chris. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 27 December , 2005 Share Posted 27 December , 2005 Chris Regarding the belt - back in October I posted a question about my grandfather's belt (post entitled RE Sapper's belt). It looks the same as in your picture. I was informed that this was pattern 82 or 88 valise equipment, which was commonly handed out in the early part of the war, particulalry when stocks were low. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 27 December , 2005 Share Posted 27 December , 2005 ; what precisely is a "service battalion"? If you could give me a definition, Chris a service battalion or rather a war service battalion, was raised specifically for the war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 27 December , 2005 Share Posted 27 December , 2005 Chris, Download the cards and post them here. He may have a second card for another reason....but a man often got a second card when decorated in some way. You can look up the London Gazette On-Line....I tried but because of the various way that mens names were recorded it is difficult to use unless you know what you are doing. Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 27 December , 2005 Share Posted 27 December , 2005 Regarding the belt - back in October I posted a question about my grandfather's belt (post entitled RE Sapper's belt). It looks the same as in your picture. I was informed that this was pattern 82 or 88 valise equipment, which was commonly handed out in the early part of the war, particulalry when stocks were low. the exact design differed from regiment to regiment but the overall style was similiar, and of course usage depended on availability In my collection of WW1 photos i only seem to have bandsman and obvious regular NCOs wearing it in the manchesters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 28 December , 2005 Share Posted 28 December , 2005 (edited) harribobs, Surely that's an officers and bandmasters belt clasp, which has lost it's silver and gilt finish, rather than those worn by other ranks, which were plain and in brass? By the time the Great War kicked off other ranks had been wearing the General Service pattern belt buckle which was in brass with the motto "Dieu Et Mon Droit", which I believe was the original belt clasp for the Slade Wallace equipment. Graham. "Uniforms & Equipment of the British Army in WWI" even shows that particular belt being worn with Kithener blues. Edited 28 December , 2005 by Graham Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAllonby Posted 28 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2005 Here's the medal cards from the National Archives. Could someone assist me with the interpretation of them. Looks like on the second one I might have been done. There's virtually no information on it. Thanks, Chris. PS; can't load the second one - not enough filespace in allowed in this post, but it only contains a serial number bottom right. Can anything be deduced from that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 28 December , 2005 Share Posted 28 December , 2005 (edited) Chris, He originally enlisted into the Kings Own(number 12644) and was subsequently transferred to the Machine Gun Corps(renumbered 21637) with whom he died of wounds on the 27/9/1917. According to Soldiers Died in the Great War he was born in Ulverston and enlisted in Ulverston. He actually went overseas with the King Own before he was later transferred. Looking at his old Kings Own number 12644 and using SDGW it shows that a number of men with the number beginning 126** are actually serving with the 7th(Service)Bn,Kings Own, which landed in France as part of 56th Brigade/19th Division in July 1915. This method isn't 100% certain, but it's a 95% possibility. Graham. Edited 28 December , 2005 by Graham Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 29 December , 2005 Share Posted 29 December , 2005 Can you post the second one as well Chris? You never know your luck. I would also recommend getting someone to obtain the Medal Rolls. His medals were administered by the MGC but there may be some mention of his Royal Lancs battalion the roll as he was serving with them when he qualified for his 1914/15 Star. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAllonby Posted 29 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2005 (edited) Tim, Here's the other one. Not a lot on it though. Why might it exist? I've e-mailed the NA asking for a refund! Chris Baker's website is good for an interpretation of these cards, but I can't find out what the numbers on bottom right might be. Another thought: the downloads I got from NA contained several other medal cards for soliders named Park. Does anyone collect these? If so, I'll send them the two sets of six I obtained. Edited 29 December , 2005 by ChrisAllonby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 29 December , 2005 Share Posted 29 December , 2005 Is it possible his victory medal was named to his earlier regiment? On the first MiC card there is a sort of asterix next to his first regiment and the victory medal section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPotter Posted 30 December , 2005 Share Posted 30 December , 2005 Is it possible his victory medal was named to his earlier regiment? On the first MiC card there is a sort of asterix next to his first regiment and the victory medal section. No. The first MIC clearly shows that although the British War and Victory medals were issued off the MGC Roll, the medals were named to him as 'Kings Own'. I am at a bit of a loss to know why this second card was produced. It would defintely appear to relate to him but carries no entitlement to either a medal or a War Badge, which are the only reasons for producing a card in the first place. I can only surmise that it was a mistake but it was never destroyed. A mystery indeed. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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