Anthony Bagshaw Posted 20 December , 2005 Share Posted 20 December , 2005 Thought i was cracking up and it was time for bed!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 20 December , 2005 Share Posted 20 December , 2005 Aaaaaargh - now I'm answering posts that don't exist. Time for bed methinks...... Nighty night everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 20 December , 2005 Share Posted 20 December , 2005 Oh, Bu**er, indeed. Making a fool of myself again. Anthony, Great-uncle Arthur's records, I mentioned far, far above. He enlisted on 8-1-1895 and was allocated to the 2nd Battalion serving in Jersey in 1895 and 1896, transferred to the 1st Battalion 22-12-1896 for service in India and the NWF (Tirah Campaign 1897-8) and went to South Africa and the 2nd Battalion on 3-3-1902. To A Reserve 4.1.1903. B Reserve 4.1.1904. Discharged 7.1.1907 having served 12 years (8 active, 4 reserve) He is on the QSA rolls for the 2nd Northamptons and his service records were in WO97 if it helps. Sorry for making a mess of the Topic. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Bagshaw Posted 20 December , 2005 Share Posted 20 December , 2005 Oh, Bu**er, indeed. Making a fool of myself again. Anthony, Great-uncle Arthur's records, I mentioned far, far above. He enlisted on 8-1-1895 and was allocated to the 2nd Battalion serving in Jersey in 1895 and 1896, transferred to the 1st Battalion for service in India and the NWF (Tirah Campaign 1897-8) and went to South Africa and the 2nd Battalion on 3-3-1902. He is on the QSA rolls for the 2nd Northamptons and his service records were in WO97 if it helps. Sorry for making a mess of the Topic. Steve. Steve, Thanks for the info. The only thing relating to GGF's service with the Northants is that he enlisted in August 1895, he would have been 16. I'm going to have GGF's papers searched for after Chrimbo. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 20 December , 2005 Share Posted 20 December , 2005 So getting back to Zara's Joseph, and looking with Anthony's Great-Grandafther's medal roll evidence that they enlisted at about the same time. Since Anthony's GGF changed Regiments 6816 would have been a number issued at the time of re-enlistment, most probably 1914 onwards. Therefore, my previous estimate, in ignorance of the SF's numbering system, is totally off. Sorry, Zara. (Note to self : Do not meddle with the affairs of Sherwood Foresters numbers for they are inscrutable) So Joseph Newman could well have served as Zara has said, late 1800s to around 1910-12, but under a different SF number. At that latter time he would have been fully discharged and his old number would not be reusable, even by himself. At re-enlistment he would have been given number 6811 out of the new sequence (wherever that belonged) Does that make any sense? (Obviously more than my missing post!) Unfortunately, this does leave open the possibility that, like Anthony's Great-Grandfather, Joseph served in a different Regiment before serving in the Sherwood Foresters. Steve. PS Anthony. When Arthur enlisted he gave his age as 18 years, 2 months. His actual age was 17 years, 10 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Bagshaw Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Steve, That does make sense. The interesting thing is, that on the medal roll there are seven men listed. 5 are Sgts, 1 a Pte and 1 CSM. This would seem to me to indicate that they are all experienced soldiers (including the Private, who may have chosen to stay as a Private) who have seen previous action, for want of a better word. Would this support the Reservist theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zara Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Look what's happened while I've been asleep!! I've learned so much in such a short time, especially the post by Brian Hesketh - thank you all. I have the medal card for Joseph Henry but having now found Harry's other number (I had been searching using his longer number) I shall get his medal record and will let you know what I find. Thanks again everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Would this support the Reservist theory? I got your PM with extra detail and, personally, I think so. I've been looking into SDGW for more clues and it seems that many of these men went into the regular 1st and 2nd battalions, which I think gives additional weight to the theory. If I were you I'd be taking seriously the possibility that George Stokes was a reservist as well. shall get his medal record and will let you know what I find. Please do. This has been a cracking thread so far. Would there be any chance of posting the MIC's? Also it would be nice to see a photo of who we've all been talking about if that would be possible. All the best, Andrew 'Brian' Hesketh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zara Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 I've got Harry's medal card and I've attached it Also attached is a picture of the three brothers. Harry's medal card throws up another mystery. It states he is a private but on his grave he is shown as a lance corporal. Could he have been promoted unofficially? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Thanks for the MIC. Probably not much of a mystery. The rank of Lance Corporal was probably fairly new at the time of death or was temporary rank awaiting confirmation that was made irrelevant by his death. We've also noted above that the MIC contains the 4 digit number so clearly the MIC hadn't caught up with that alteration either. His date of entry is given as 17 August 1915 so he wasn't with the 2/7th in Ireland (or indeed any force in Ireland). That shoots down one part of the conjecture above, which is helpful in pinning down his service. It's impossible to say whether he was in the 1/8th from the date given, but it does prove he was not one of the 'original' 1/8th's because they had been in France for sometime by that date. His number though is very 2/7thish, so I would still hazard a guess at him jumping from the 2/7th to 1/8th - just earlier than originally thought. Any chance of seeing Joseph's MIC? One other thing. I'm not good on uniforms but there are others here that are and I notice the possibility of chevrons on the lower right sleeve of Harrys tunic. If this is not a trick of light they could be significant. There may also be a badge of some description on Joseph's left arm. Any chance of enhanced close-ups? It looks like Joseph is wearing Corporal stripes whereas Harry has none. Do you have a date for the photo? Have you traced William's naval service? Is he one of these four? http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...=1&mediaarray=* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zara Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Andrew Thanks for such a quick reply. Sorry for calling you Brian in an ealier post. I've checked the original photos and it was a trick of the light. I have no idea when the photo was taken. My grnadmother remarried in 1919 and lost contact with the Newmans so my father didn't have much knowledge of his family. All we had were the photos with no dates or any background. I have other photos which I am attaching. I hope that something comes to light. I'll scan in Joseph's medal card when I get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Thanks for these. I can't see anything I'm afraid, but as I said, I'm not a uniform buff. Who's the officer looking chap top left? Your earlier photo: if the photo shows Joseph as a Corporal and Harry with no rank then it presumably pre-dates Joseph's accession to sergeant at some point in 1915. And I don't mind being called Brian. I have, believe me, been called much worse....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 I assume that there must be another MIC around for harry since the one posted only has his 1915 Star and not his VM & BWM. Perhaps the VM & BWM was issued under his new number (not that I can find it under either number) Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff. Hobson Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 May I say thankyou to all who have contributed to this thread on the Foresters not only interesting but informative indeed. Andrew, the R. Morris you mention K.I.A. 29th May 1917 in the War Diary came from my home Village, Whitwell, Derbyshire and has so far proved a bit of a mystery to me looking for his background. Regards Cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Cliff - strange how many connections are appearing in this thread. I'm wondering if the two men referred to as missing in the war diary might be Harry and R. Morris. Perhaps their fate was discovered some time after the 30th and then they were presumed killed on the date they were last seen. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zara Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 I know that Harry was found as he has a grave in Loos British Cemetery. His death certificate states "Killed in Action". However, as you say, the date of death may well have been assumed. They never found my grandfather. His death certificate states "Assumed to have died". Attached is his medal card. It's a bit dark but I hope you can see it. As for Harry, I couldn't find an MIC under his other number, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Gibson Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 What an interesting thread. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Bagshaw Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 The roll of Honour in the Battalion History records the deaths on the 28th of L/Cpl Newman and Pte R Morris. However as in the war diary no mention is made as to the events of the 28th May. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Thanks for the MIC. Not the most detailed I've ever seen! I wonder why the theatre and date of entry boxes are blank? That's rather irritating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 22 December , 2005 Share Posted 22 December , 2005 There's no Star shown. Therefore after 1-1-16. I wouldn't expect a date of entry or theatre. Would support the Ireland in 1916 theory, though. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 22 December , 2005 Share Posted 22 December , 2005 There's no Star shown. Therefore after 1-1-16. I wouldn't expect a date of entry or theatre. Steve, I'm not fully clued up on the MIC's, so why would that be? Is it common not to record such details from 1916 onwards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 22 December , 2005 Share Posted 22 December , 2005 The date of entry seems to be only on the MICs for 1914 and 1915 Stars. You get very few on the VM/BWM only MICs, which is both a bit frustrating for us and, to me, a little silly. Since the qualification for the Stars were mainly date based surely putting the date on the MICs that did NOT qualify would ensure that mistakes were not made? That is perhaps a little too logical for the Army back then, and we're just stuck with it for our research. Does at least pin his overseas service as after 1-1-1916 (unless there is a 1915 Star medal card around somewhere) Zara's family evidence of him serving/teaching(?) at a training school some time in 1915 in the UK, would reduce the likelihood of a 1915 Star in any case, I would think. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zara Posted 22 December , 2005 Share Posted 22 December , 2005 Have some more information from my mother. Joseph Henry was apparently an Instructor. The family story is that he was at Etaples when the Mutiny started. Is this a realistic possiblilty? Is there any way I could find out? I know the Mutiny was in 1917 in Sep and Etaples wasn't too far from Cambrai where Joseph Henry died in the Dec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 22 December , 2005 Share Posted 22 December , 2005 Zara, please keep the info rolling, it's all adding up. I wouldn't get too excited about the proximity of Etaples and Cambrai. They're not too far apart in our terms but in Western Front terms they're about as far apart as the Britsih army ever experienced. Etaples was a huge base through which new drafts and returning wounded soldiers were drilled. It did not have the most lovable of reputations, especially the instructors. If Joseph was one he wouldn't have been Mr. Popular......... Can we find out if he was there at the time of the mutiny? I don't know whether any lists of instructors at the base exist. Might be worth starting a new thread elsewhere with this question, perhaps in the 'Western Front' area. Regarding the mutiny, there is lots on the forum already if you are interested. Just do a search and lots will come up. Steve - thanks for the clarification of the MIC question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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