Sherwood Foresters

[Guest Zara]

My grandad was in the regiment from the late 1800s. I know this from the Soldier's Prayer Book that I have. He died in 1917 in France. Yet when he got married in 1909 his occupation was "Pottery Worker".

Could he have come out of the Army prior to his marriage and rejoined for the War, or did they not put down the military as an occupation but used their civilian occupation, even though they were soldiers?

He was born in Dorset and I can find no connection with Nottingham or the Midlands. Is there a reason why he would have opted for this regiment rather than a Dorset one?

[Stephen Nulty]

Zara

Welcome to the forum

Post details of what you already know (names, numbers, age, etc) and see what comes back to you.

[Guest Zara]

Thanks for the help.

My grandad was 6811 Sergeant Joseph Henry Newman. He joined the Sherwood Foresters in the late 1800s and died 5 December 1917 (aged 32) in the Battle of Bapaume and has his name in a panel in Cambrai Memorial Cemetery, Louverval

His younger brother 307054 Lance Corporal Harry Newman was in the same regiment. He died 28 May 1917 (age 28) and is buried in Loos British Cemetery.

Can anyone give me any information about them?

[Stebie9173]

You've probably already gathered this info but for the benefit of the forum:

Casualty Details

Name: NEWMAN, JOSEPH HENRY

Initials: J H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant

Regiment: Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)

Unit Text: 2nd/7th Bn.

Date of Death: 05/12/1917

Service No: 6811

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 8.

Cemetery: CAMBRAI MEMORIAL, LOUVERVAL

Casualty Details

Name: NEWMAN

Initials: H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lance Corporal

Regiment: Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)

Unit Text: 1st/8th Bn.

Date of Death: 28/05/1917

Service No: 307054

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: XIX. G. 1.

Cemetery: LOOS BRITISH CEMETERY

Although they were in the same Regiment, they were in different battalions:

Joesph was in the "2nd Line" of the 7th Battalion in 59th Division:

http://www.1914-1918.net/59div.htm

Joseph would have fallen during the German counter-attack at the Battle of Cambrai.

whereas Harry was in the "1st Line" of the 8th Battalion in 46th Division:

http://www.1914-1918.net/46div.htm

Harry would have fallen at the Hill 70 battle mentioned on the above page.

While Harry has the sort of number you would expect for a Territorial Battalion, Joseph does not.

His earlier service might mean that he served with another battalion before transferring the the 2/7th.

This is Joseph's Medal index Card downlaod page:

Medal card of Newman, Joseph H

Corps Regiment No Rank

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 6811 Serjeant

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=1

Have you looked at the details shown on his Card?

I can't find Harry at the moment...

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Ah, Think I've found Harry.

Medal card of Newman, H

Corps Regiment No Rank

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 5572 Private

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=2

While this card doesn't show his 307054 number, this following one shows numbers in the same sequence:

Medal card of Prince, James

Corps Regiment No Rank

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 22136 Private

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 5573 Private

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 307055 Private

Note the number 5573 (one on from Harry) being changed to 307055 (also one on from Harry)

And another nearby with the same sort of sequence:

Medal card of Cox, William

Corps Regiment No Rank

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 5577 Private

Royal Ordnance Department Royal Engineers WR 207547 Pioneer

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 307058 Pioneer

(Harry's number +5 to Harry's new number +4. Presumably one of the intervening men had died before the renumbering)

and one in front:

Medal card of Marvill, William

Corps Regiment No Rank

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 11674 Corporal

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 5570 Corporal

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 307052 Corporal

(Harry's number -2 to Harry's new number -2)

This has convinced me that 5572 H Newman is the same as 307054 H Newman on CWGC.

By way of explanation, all Territorial (TF) men were renumbered at 1-3-1917 from a 4-digit number to a 6-digit number in set ranges allocated specifically to battalions.

The number ranges 305001 to 330000 seem to be allocated to the 7th Battalion. Can anyone confirm this?

If so it would mean he transferred from the 7th battalion to the 1/8th sometime just before his death.

Hope this helps.

Steve.

[wig]

If he was in the 2/7th then there is a strong possibility he also fought in the Easter Rising in Ireland, have a look at:

http://www.wfrmuseum.org.uk/rhr_Ireland.htm

you should also look at the truly astonishing site at:

http://www.derbyshirelads.uwclub.net/index.html

wig

[Stebie9173]

Lastly,

Joseph's number 6811 seems a little odd to me for a late 1800s number.

I would have thought that that sort of number in a pre-war 2 battalion regiment would have been allocated around 1905?

I'm sure one of the Sherwood Foresters experts can shed some light on that, though.

Despite being with the 1/8th Battalion at his death he does not have a TF number. That does suggest he was enlisted on "Regular" Army enlistment terms and later transferred battalions.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Wig,

You're just trying to curry favour with our Mr. Hesketh, now aren't you?

(Zara - Author of the 2nd website in Wig's post and Member of this Forum. One of the Sherwood Foresters experts I mentioned.)

Steve.

[wig]

Well, I am only a sgt and he's a very senior officer.....

Wig,

You're just trying to curry favour with our Mr. Hesketh, now aren't you?

(Zara - Author of the 2nd website in Wig's post and Member of this Forum. One of the Sherwood Foresters experts I mentioned.)

Steve.

[Guest Zara]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I did know some of the information but you've all given me more to go at.

To Stebie - the reason I think my grandad (Joseph Henry Newman) joined up in the late 1800s was that he is not on the 1901 census. I checked with a Notts & Derby site and the regiment was in South Africa then, and by the time he signed the prayer book he was in Bangalore in 1906 as a corporal. I made the assumption that to get to be a corporal by 1906 he must have joined up some time before ie in the late 1800s.

On his marriage certificate in 1909 his occupation was "pottery worker" but by the time of his death in 1917 he was a sergeant. Could he have been in the Army throughout?

My mother has sent me a photo of him at the NCOs School of Instruction in York in 1915. He is listed as a sergeant there. Was this because he had just been promoted?

Does anyone know of this school and if the building is still there?

Thanks again for you help. Keep on sending the information!!

[Stebie9173]

Zara,

You're in a very similar situation to me with my great-uncle, Arthur Brooksbank.

(This text applies only to my relative and is shown as an example)

He too was missing from the 1901 Census. I later found his service records (most of the men who served and were fully discharged from the Army before 1913 will have a copy of their pre-war service records at the National Archive in Series WO97)

Anyway, we thought he would have been in South Africa. That led me to check the Queen's South Africa Medal rolls in WO100 at the NA. There I found that he got the Transvaal and 1902 Clasps which meant he was only there in 1902. His service record (I looked at this later) then told me that he was serving with the other battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment in India in 1901. This was from the WO97 records.

He enlisted in 1895 and served until 1903 on active service and went onto A Reserve (1 year) and B Reserve (3 years). Added to his 8 years active service this gives a total of 12 years which was the standard enlistment period.

While on Reserve he was paid a reduced pay and expected to attend training at certain times. He would also have had a civilian job. Since he was fully discharged he would have had to re-enlist at the start of the war and would have been allocated a new number.

His two younger brothers enlisted in 1905 and 1906 and went onto Reserve in 1912. They were still on Reserve in August 1914 and were immediately recalled.

So sya Joseph enlisted in say 1905 and shipped out to Bangalore in 1906 (therefore serving actively, obviously). If he served 7 years active duty puts him onto Reserve in 1912, say. He would then be recalled from the Reserve in 1914 (provided he was fit, one of the above brothers wasn't and only returned to the Army in 1916).

As a prior NCO he would have been ideal to train the army of new recruits. (My G-U Arthur was a Corporal on discharge, and a Sergeant-Major by early 1916 if my local paper is to be believed)

The rise of Joseph to Corporal seems a little quick. My relatives took about 5 years to Lance-Corporal, and one made Corporal in another year.

My dating by the number was based on the other 2 battalion regiments I have knowledge of (the Northamptonshire and Suffolk) and the fact that on average around 300 numbers were allocated per year from 1881 when the numbering system changed in these sort of Regiments.

Others who have researched the Sherwood Foresters specifically would be better placed to estimate the date of enlistment, though.

Have you checked the details given on the Medal Index Cards?

Steve.

[Cliff. Hobson]

ZARA,

My father was with the 8th Battalion Sherwood Foresters, I don't wish to muddy the waters with regard to numbering but his number(s) was 3441 and 70824.

I have a copy of the war history of the 8th Battalion Sherwood Foresters and the following extract from 1917 shows " After a short rest at Noeux-les-Mines we went back to the Lieven Sector again on May 25th and took over the line from Fosse 9 and Cite-St. Theodore to just south of the Lievens Lens Road. Battalion Headquarters were at the corner house near the "Marble Arch" in Lieven. Here the monotony of trench life was varied by long distance patrols, and an enemy raid on the May 29/30th on our post at the Junction of " Crocodile trench and the railway cutting, when we lost two men captured, three killed and seven wounded. Casualties during the whole of this period unfortunately were heavy and reinforcements few, one officer, 2nd Lieut. Orton and 36 men who joined in May.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Blimey. My name and the word expert in the same sentence. Not often I’ve seen the word that misplaced. Kind of puts the pressure on to deliver something…..

Zara, welcome to the forum. I hope the following answers a few of your questions. Feel free to throw more questions at us – you’ll almost certainly have some.

You’ve had some outstanding help with this so far, and I think Steve has highlighted a very important series of points as a result of some time consuming cross-checking regarding service numbers. I’ve been doing some thinking and checking and have a plausible explanation of the careers of both men, though the only way to pin this down factually is to see if the service records survive at the National Archives (see here on the main site for more details of these - http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/grandad9.htm)

Firstly, additional information from the ‘Soldiers Died’ CD-Rom.

Joseph Henry Newman:

Born & resident of (at time of enlistment) Parkstone, Dorset. Enlisted Derby. Sergeant 6811, 2/7th Sherwood Foresters. Killed in Action, 5/12/1917.

Harry Newman:

Enlisted Chesterfield. Lance Corporal 307054, 1/8th Sherwood Foresters. Killed in Action, 28/5/17.

Joseph.

You say that Joseph had pre-WWI service and was possibly in South Africa at the time of the 1901 Census. This is perfectly possible. I can tell you however that if he was there he would have been with the 1st battalion, he was not wounded and he did not attain any rank higher than private during that war. I would imagine that he left the army at some point between about 1906 when you say he was in Bangalore as a Corporal and 1907 when you say he gave his occupation as pottery worker. Upon leaving he would almost certainly have gone ‘on reserve’, a fairly standard thing to do, ready for a call back to the colours if/when necessary.

That call came in 1914 and I would imagine that Joseph was one of thousands of reservists called up in August 1914. Reservists would have been called back to their original regiment but would have no say over which battalion they went to. Many went straight into the battalions ready for overseas action but it would appear that Joseph went to the 7th territorial (TF) battalion, which would not be ready for a few months. However, his place of enlistment is given as Derby so I would suspect that he initially reported to the 5th battalion which was raised there, before being moved to the 7th shortly after. These TF battalions needed the ‘backbone’ of experienced soldiers and I wouldn’t be surprised if he rose to the rank of Sergeant fairly quickly. I note that you have a reference to him as a Sergeant in 1915, so this conjecture fits together quite well. This would also partly explain why his number, 6811, seemed odd to Steve in the context of the territorials. The 68** numbered men are scattered across the range of SF battalions like confetti at a wedding – there’s simply no pattern and, as Cliff has pointed out, using numbers in the SF to draw conclusions is fraught with danger – but it proves (to my mind) that Joseph was not a territorial by choice, but a reservist allocated to the 7th TF.

Men of the TF battalions like the 7th (and 8th – see Harry below) had a choice of serving overseas or serving in home defence. The former became the 1/7th and the latter the 2/7th. Being, I presume, one of the more elderly members of the 7th (relatively speaking) and probably a family man to boot, I could easily understand why he opted for the 2/7th. I’m pretty confident that his brother was with him at this time too – see below.

By 1916 however, with the war not going as swimmingly as many had expected, many men of the 2nd line Sherwood TF’s were preparing for what they regarded as the inevitable orders to go to France, regardless of the decision they had taken earlier regarding home defence. Some thought they were going when movement orders landed in April 1916, but the orders stipulated Ireland, not France, and the Easter Rising not the Western Front. As Wig (John) has pointed out, there is a very good chance that Joseph went to Ireland in April 1916 with the 2/7th (and the other three 2nd line Sherwood TF battalions). He’s already given you a good link to read more about the Sherwoods and the Easter Rising (an excellent article which, modestly, he has failed to tell you that he wrote. See, we plug each other!).

The inevitable move to France came in February 1917. You can get an idea of the next year here - http://www.derbyshirelads.uwclub.net/Sherw...lions/2_7bn.htm

Unfortunately I have nothing to hand concerning the events of Joseph’s final days, but I’ll see what I can come up with. However the forum will be ‘relegated’ a little over the next few days so bear with me!

Harry.

Steve has pointed out (with some excellent detective work on the MIC’s I note!) that there is a very good chance that Harry was also a 7th man before the 1/8th (place of enlistment leads me to suspect that he was with the 6th battalion initially). I think that this conjecture is highly likely to be true. His initial 5572 number ties in perfectly with the 2/7th before renumbering (in fact more neatly than Joseph’s to be honest). I would also have a strong suspicion that, like his brother, he too was a reservist.

At some point he was transferred to the 1/8th. This is not unheard of. In fact I was only recently tracking the career of another man who made exactly the same move. Why the move may have happened is impossible to guess at, but I would not be too surprised if it happened c. autumn of 1916 when the 2/7th were effectively a garrison force in Ireland. Having seen action in Dublin, it appears that a number of men of the 2nd line Sherwood TF’s were attracted to the ‘bright lights’ (as it were) of the ‘real’ war in France. I’d hazard a guess that Harry was one of the men who jumped at this time.

Whatever the accuracy of the above conjecture, we know that Harry was with the 1/8th in time to pick up a new 6-digit number in March 1917. As Steve has mentioned (correctly again!) the 8th TF numbers were in the range 305001 to 330000, so Harry fits in perfectly there.

Sadly he met his death on 28 May 1917. Thanks to another forum pal (Mike Briggs – thanks mate) I’ve just taken possession of the 1/8th war diary for that date. Here’s a verbatim transcript of 25-30 May (the days are not clearly delineated and it was clearly written with some hindsight. It was obviously a testing time….)

“25/26th. The battalion proceeded to the trenches and relieved 5th Lincolnshire Reg’t in left sector right brigade front at LIEVIN. HQ M 22 B 20.15 (Ref LENS 36cSW 1/10,500). The line was held as an outpost line by a series of posts with a main defence line about 600 yards in rear. Two companies plus one platoon each from SUPPORT COMPANY were in the front line, 1 company less 2 platoons in support and one company in reserve. There was considerable trench mortar activity by the enemy on the outpost line. Our artillery was active during the tour. On the 26th the enemy attempted to rush post at M 18 D 60.60 but was driven off by LG (Lewis Gun) and rifle fire suffering casualties. He again attempted this in the early morning of the 27th xxxx (word indecipherable) again driven off by the night of the 29th.

30th. After a heavy barrage the enemy attempted to raid one trench at the junction of CROCODILE TRENCH and RAILWAY CUTTING and also post at GUNPIT on left of this post. After sharp hand to hand fighting the enemy was driven off and all posts re-established on the original line. Our casualties were 3 killed, 2 missing and 7 wounded. The enemy shelled back area during this period with 4.2” and 5.9” + occasional gas shells. A large quantity of wire was put out in front of main defensive line. Trenches were improved and wire put out in front of outpost line.”

Note that the diary records 3 deaths on the 30th, but not Harry’s death on the 28th nor that of Private R. Morris on the 29th.

Anyway, that’s it for now.

[Anthony Bagshaw]

I note that you have a reference to him as a Sergeant in 1915, so this conjecture fits together quite well. This would also partly explain why his number, 6811, seemed odd to Steve in the context of the territorials. The 68** numbered men are scattered across the range of SF battalions like confetti at a wedding – there’s simply no pattern and, as Cliff has pointed out, using numbers in the SF to draw conclusions is fraught with danger

Interesting stuff Andrew.

My Great Grandfather was 6816 CSM Stokes of the 11th Battalion, and i have his medal roll. Now somewhere i think i have the roll for 6811, may be on the same page.

Let me go check................

[Anthony Bagshaw]

Well,

would you believe it!!!!

6811 Sgt Joseph Henry Newman 2/7th Bn. directly above my Great Grandfather on the medal roll.

Incidently, the 2/7th is the only Battalion shown.

[Andrew Hesketh]

This is good! Isn't it great when bits of a jigsaw drop together like this?

I don't suppose there would be any mention of any prior battalion 'cos home service, including Ireland, didn't warrant a MIC. This suggestion was only an educated guess which only the service records could tidy up.

[Anthony Bagshaw]

Good!! This is getting great!!

[Anthony Bagshaw]

With regards to Boer War service and the numbering, my Great Grandfather also served but with the 2nd Northamptons.

How he got to be with the Foresters, other than the fact he too was living in Chesterfield, i haven't got a clue!!

[Andrew Hesketh]

Anthony,

George served in the Northampton's in the Boer War didn't he? Do you know if he was a reservist? I'm interested now in knowing how the 68** number might be explained.

....and could they have been mates, George and Joseph?

[Anthony Bagshaw]

Soldiers died give us:

Born Parkstone, Dorset

Enlisted Derby

Lived Parkstone, Dorset

[Andrew Hesketh]

Hey this is interesting. You answered the question I was asking whilst I was still typing it and before I posted it!!

[Anthony Bagshaw]

Anthony,

George served in the Northampton's in the Boer War didn't he? Do you know if he was a reservist? I'm interested now in knowing how the 68** number might be explained.

....and could they have been mates, George and Joseph?

Andrew,

really don't know if he was in the reserves or not mate, this is why i'm getting quite interested too.

George definitely served with the 2nd Northamptons as a Corporal, so would have been quite experienced.

They could well have been quite good friends, it nice to think of them stood with each other in the line at the office when they were recalled chatting away.

Nice image don't you think?

Hey this is interesting. You answered the question I was asking whilst I was still typing it and before I posted it!!

great minds and all that!!

[Anthony Bagshaw]

Steve,

very small world indeed.

My Great Grandfather served as 4635 Cpl 2nd Northamptons and then 6816 CSM 11th Sherwoods.

The only info i have on my GGF is that in 1907 he was living in Chesterfield.

That is unfortunately the only info i have on him between both wars

[Stebie9173]

APologies for the disappearing post, Andrew and Anthony. I realised I was talking complete rubbish...

(If you saw it. If you didn't then well...)

Steve.

[Andrew Hesketh]

"Is 6811/6816 a Territorial number or a Regular?"

Therein lies a very good question.

Haven't a clue! SF numbering really is a bu er.........