marina Posted 4 December , 2005 Share Posted 4 December , 2005 http://www.scran.ac.uk/database/results.ph...&searchdb=scran Photos of these two ladies. Article on Mhairi Chisholm http://www.nls.uk/experiencesofwar/weewind...chisholm-2.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/lj/warslj/women_09.shtml Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hi Marina Many thanks for posting the SCRAN site - I had never seen it before so I think I will enjoy some exploring Last nights program was thebest yet, although I have been to York Minster twice I have never noticed the womens memorial (prob too busy looking at wall plaques) Kind regards Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ypres1418 Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Thanks Marina. very good sites added to fav's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 5 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Glad you both enjoyed - thta's th good thing about Hislop's programme - opens up new things to look into ! Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Mairi Chisholm's WW1 diaries are at the Imperial War Museum. I think both women recieved the MM as well. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Terry_Reeves said: I think both women recieved the MM as well. 'Not long afterwards there was another plane incident. I saw the machine spiral down near the German trenches, telephoned 52 Squadron, and told them that I was going out to collect the pilot. When I got to him he had somehow got out and crawled into a clump of reeds near by. While the stretcher-bearers went on I was confronted with the German commanding officers. Since I speak German well, I was able to explain matters satisfactorily; a new lot of troops had taken over, and though the form had been explained to them, they must have been a bit startled to see our party so near their lines. When we arrived back at Pervyse I noticed that our trenches were simply stiff with top people. The Earl of Athlone was there, and General Rawlinson, and several others. I was quite out of breath, very muddy, and rather bewildered. But the first thing was to get the pilot back to our quarters and give him a rest and a hot drink. I lent him a pair of my breeches, since his own were so torn and covered in oil. This exploit earned me and Mairi the immediate award of the Military Medal, and with it the Order of St. John of Jerusalem, though, in fact, it was not nearly as difficult and dangerous as some of the other sorties we had made. Elsie Knocker [baroness de T'Serclaes] in 'Flanders and Other Fields' There was another thread on the pair here: although the photos aren't there any more. I'll see if I can put them back. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 5 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2005 'going out to collect the pilot' - so casual, so matter of fact. What a lady! Thanks for that and the other thread, Sue. Am just off to look at it now. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Marina Although on one level the passage is a fairly simple description of the event, it does rather sum up her extraordinary qualities. Somehow she managed to fit into a male environment, and face men as an equal. If you were unaware that the extract was written by a woman, it could be attributed to a male officer - she never seems to regard herself as a woman - rather as a 'person' with a job to do, in a sea of other 'people.' The donation of her 'breeches' to the pilot is the final, most extreme action of equality - could there have been any other British women on the Western Front who could exchange clothing with a man in such a matter of fact and appropriate manner? She had had a fairly unusual upbringing, and at the outbreak of war she had already been married, divorced, and had a son, Kenneth, who at that time was just seven years old - but she had been out earning a living since he was very young. I think just for the pure range of her life experience and qualities she must rate as one of the strongest British women to serve in the Great War. I know it's been mentioned on the Forum somewhere before, but Wing Commander Kenneth Knocker died in 1942, when his plane was shot down over Groningen. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 5 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hi, Sue - yes, the tone of that extract is quite remarkable in its directness. I think even now in more modrn times it would still be quite rare. She seems very practical and pragmatic and quite fearless. And well ahead of her times in being divorced and supporting herself and hr child. Do you know if she had other children with her second husband? Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Do you know if she had other children with her second husband? Marina No, I don't think so. She married Harold de T'Serclaes in 1916, but it was a brief affair, and they separated/divorced in 1919. She writes of her marriage: 'So much of me went into my work that I suppose I was easily swept along on a tide of glamour and welcome frivolity. Perhaps I had a desire just to drift for once, not to struggle. It was pleasant to imagine that all would turn out well, and after fifteen months' risking my life at the Front marriage seemed a comparatively small risk to take. I did want someone to take some of the burden off my shoulders and thought how good it would be for Kenneth to have a father. After a lightening honeymoon we hardly saw one another again. I was too busy at Pervyse, and my husband had to return to his squadron.' And that is the last mention of him in the whole book! But it seems that it was desirable and useful for her to keep the title for the rest of her life - maybe that was a practical decision in some ways as well In the TV programme, the woman who went to Belgium - was it Julia/Juliet [?] - was either her grand-daughter or great grand-daughter, so presumably descended from Kenneth. The younger boy they interviewd was a gt. gt. nephew, but as Elsie was the youngest of five children, there are probably quite a lot of nieces and nephews about. I've never seen mention anywhere of her maiden name, although her mother was a sister of Lt. Col. Richard Kerr Bayly [black Watch], who took most of the children on board after they were orphaned. Sue Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 6 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Thanks, Sue. Good idea to keep the title! Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 I wonder if Elsie was married the first time. As she was said to have been born in 1890 and I have read accounts that she was married in 1906, she would have been married when 16 years old and divorced or widowed when 17 years old. I have also read that her first husband died. Also there is the question of Kenneth's middle name. "Duke". Is this an indication of who his father was or, if she was married, an indication of her maiden name ? Questions, questions !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Myrtle I'm far too nosey not to have tried to investigate some of this. Her 'official' dates are given as 1890-1974, but it appears that there is a tiny 'porkie' there Her own account, written in 1964, states that she was married in 1906, which she says was sometime well after her 21st birthday. The marriage was to Leslie Duke Knocker, and was registered in Marlborough in the June quarter of 1906 [5a 205]. Most unfortunately, that was before the bride's maiden name was included in the index. So it seems that her birth year was probably 1884/5, which seems much more probable. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Ah Sue that makes much more sense. I noticed that Kenneth was born in Marlborough. Thanks for clarifying that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 (edited) KateJ's Great Dunmow seems to be infiltrating this thread. Leslie Duke Knocker seems to have been born there and appears on the 1881 census with his parents William and Nora, four brothers and a sister, living in the High Street. William was a solicitor. By 1901 Leslie appears to be living in Croydon and working in a bank. Edited 6 December , 2005 by Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 KateJ's Great Dunmow seems to be infiltrating this thread. Leslie Duke Knocker seems to have been born there and appears on the 1881 census with his parents William and Nora, four brothers and a sister, living in the High Street. William was a solicitor. By 1901 Leslie appears to be living in Croydon and working in a bank. Does the census give a house number/name in the High Street? Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Kate No number or name on the online census. They were nextdoor to Mr Campbell the hairdresser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royalredcross Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Elsie Blackhall Shapter was born in on 29 August, 1885 at Exeter, the fifth child of Thomas L. and Charlotte Shapter, and was educated at St. Nicholas's, Folkestone, and at the Chateau Lutry in Switzerland. After training at the Children's Hip Hospital at Sevenoaks she married L.D. Knocker in 1904 but the marriage failed and she subsequently undertook midwife training at Queen Charlotte's Hospital. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Clay Posted 8 December , 2005 Share Posted 8 December , 2005 This is a fascinating thread - thanks for starting it, Marina, and thanks to C4 and Ian Hislop for the totally absorbing series. And thanks to Sue and Norman for the additional information. Fascinating 'cos of Elsie's amazing story, but fascinating also 'cos she's distantly connected, by her marriage to L.D. Knocker, (as Elizabeth Blackall Shapter - from the 1837online record) to my partner's 6xGt Grannie Matilda Rutter (born Matilda Knocker). From the ancestry UK census collection I've got the following: Leslie Duke Knocker born Gt Dunmow c. 1875 was a son of William W Knocker, solicitor, born Dover c. 1845. William W. Knocker was a son of John Beddingfield Knocker (born Dover c. 1793), described on the 1851 census for Dover as "Lieut Royal Navy, Justice of Peace & Banker". Recalling an earler thread about family sizes, JBK had 12 of his 14 children (ages 2 - 25) with him at the time. I still have work to do to establish the links between the various - large - strands of this prominent Dover family, but the knowledge of a connection to this amazing WW1 heroine/wild child gives the search some impetus Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 8 December , 2005 Share Posted 8 December , 2005 Thanks to Norman for posting her maiden name - I found it in the Times later, but hadn't thought of that earlier! Jim She writes quite a bit about her marriage to Leslie Knocker in the first chapter of 'Flanders and other Fields' - not all of it complimentary, but a biography is always a bit of a one sided account isn't it? But might have some interest for Knocker researchers. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Clay Posted 8 December , 2005 Share Posted 8 December , 2005 She writes quite a bit about her marriage to Leslie Knocker ... might have some interest for Knocker researchers. I should think so, Sue. Must look out for it - and "not...complimentary"? Right on, girl, bring it on (them Knockers 'n' Rutters was all toffs anyway ) Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 8 December , 2005 Share Posted 8 December , 2005 ................... . While the stretcher-bearers went on I was confronted with the German commanding officers. Since I speak German well, I was able to explain matters satisfactorily; a new lot of troops had taken over, and though the form had been explained to them, ................................. Elsie Knocker [baroness de T'Serclaes] in 'Flanders and Other Fields' ........................... Sue I feel quite sorry for these poor Germans, having things explained to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 8 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2005 (edited) fascinating also 'cos she's distantly connected, by her marriage to L.D. Knocker, (as Elizabeth Blackall Shapter - from the 1837online record) to my partner's 6xGt Grannie Matilda Rutter (born Matilda Knocker). Jim Sometimes the world feels very small! What a surprise! Keep us posted! Marina Edited 8 December , 2005 by marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 8 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2005 I feel quite sorry for these poor Germans, having things explained to them. Yes, this redoubtable lady will ahve been good at explaining, I expect. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 9 December , 2005 Share Posted 9 December , 2005 This is a fascinating thread - thanks for starting it, Marina, and thanks to C4 and Ian Hislop for the totally absorbing series. And thanks to Sue and Norman for the additional information. Fascinating 'cos of Elsie's amazing story, but fascinating also 'cos she's distantly connected, by her marriage to L.D. Knocker, (as Elizabeth Blackall Shapter - from the 1837online record) to my partner's 6xGt Grannie Matilda Rutter (born Matilda Knocker). From the ancestry UK census collection I've got the following: Leslie Duke Knocker born Gt Dunmow c. 1875 was a son of William W Knocker, solicitor, born Dover c. 1845. William W. Knocker was a son of John Beddingfield Knocker (born Dover c. 1793), described on the 1851 census for Dover as "Lieut Royal Navy, Justice of Peace & Banker". Recalling an earler thread about family sizes, JBK had 12 of his 14 children (ages 2 - 25) with him at the time. I still have work to do to establish the links between the various - large - strands of this prominent Dover family, but the knowledge of a connection to this amazing WW1 heroine/wild child gives the search some impetus Jim Jim, there's a couple of "details of sale [property]" notices in the Times for the late 1870s for the Dunmow solicitors Wade and Knocker. Essex Record Office http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/%5CLogin.asp?Start=False&ERO=2 have a couple of documents with William Wheatley Knocker's name on them (inc as a trustee of Dunmow's Guild hall). Wade (and something - can't remember the something) still exists in the High St in Dunmow - I walked past their building this morning! Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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