spike10764 Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Neil, I think you could be right. I also think that 2nd row number 3 from left on 1st photo is back row 6th from left on 2nd photo. Anybody else think there’s any that look the same? Kate Back row extreme right on the first picture and back row 3rd right on lower picture. There's a semblance of the thinning hair in the lower picture and the ' tache is the same style Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 5 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Now here’s a conundrum. Are these two photos of the same person? The first photo is James Nelson Kemp, father or Harold and Gordon. The 2nd is an unknown person snapped for posterity in Dorothy Dowsett’s book “Through all the changing scenes”. The 3rd picture shows the overall crowd scene that photo number 2 comes from. The 2nd photo is 1902 taken during the festivities for the coronation of Edward VII. The first is either taken during the same festivities or five years earlier in 1897 during the celebrations for Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee. What do you think? Are they the same person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 They certainly look very similar. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Kate, How well can you blow-up the pic of Kemp standing outside his pub in your earlier posting? I tried but his image gets blurred just as it gets interesting! Maybe you can compare with that photo of him? His legs/stance look similar. Ian PS - the lefthand bike in the pub view has a hell of a large chain ring.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike10764 Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 I think the two photos look like the same person Kate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 6 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2005 I personally think it is the same person in both photos. But then I’m biased!! James Nelson Kemp was certainly in town the day of the celebrations for Edward VII’s coronation and the picture comes from the personal collection of local historian Dorothy Dowsett. She personally knew the Kemps as she refers to them in both her books on Dunmow. I think the odds are that it is him – and how incredible is that! Not only have I found a photo of Gordon in the local paper but his father turns up in a local history book! At the start of this thread was the question, why did two brothers born in Tottenham and enlisted in Yarmouth, end up on an Essex War Memorial? As we saw in the extract from the local paper, their father James fancied himself as a bit of a politician. In 1894, after the implementation of the Local Government Act, Dunmow set up its own Town Council. James Nelson Kemp was present at the inaugural meeting but not elected onto Dunmow’s Town Council (as is seen in the relevant minutes kept at Essex Record Office). However, he was elected several times during the 1890s and early 1900s. So Gordon & Harold’s father was an influential member of the community and therefore this explains why the Kemps are on Dunmow’s War Memorial. After leaving Dunmow, James Nelson Kemp must have kept in contact with his cronies on the Parish Council – the chairman at one stage was William Hasler whose son was also killed at Passchendaele (and won an MC – see this thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...wtopic=42330&hl Dorothy Dowsett, in her book “Dunmow through the ages” said “1905. Although I have no intention of bringing party politics into this book I can hardly pass over the days when the Rev. Maxted of Tilty and other Socialists used to raise hectic scenes in Dunmow. Socialism was then in its infancy and the Dunmow worthies were quite unable to cope with its radiant dreams. Mr J N Kemp of the White Horse was a regular “quick wit” and he and many others gave the Socialists a rough time, but it was no one-sided affair. Again and again in the years preceding World War 1 there were many hectic evenings in the market place which helped in their way to liven up the town.” In her other more “gossipy” local history book, Dorothy Dowsetts wrote about one of Dunmow’s character’s “Teddy Reynolds” and in doing so referred to the Kemps! [Teddy Reynolds] was rather a strange little man but was known, at least by sight, by everyone, as he was to be seen somewhere around the town, rain or shine. He was no conversationalist, and would rarely speak to anyone except his trusted friends, the Kemps, who kept the “White Horse” and let him sleep in one of their stables.” In both these books is the final clue as to the Kemps connection to Dunmow – the White Horse pub. And it is here that we will get the final glance of Harold and Gordon Kemp and their life in a sleepy Essex town before the Great War. Attached is a photo of the White Horse that I took in 2003. It is now a modern wine bar called “Dish”. Whilst this part of Essex is renowned for its coloured houses and beautiful pargetting, the colour on this building is somewhat extreme! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 7 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2005 And here is the pub in either 1897 or 1902. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike10764 Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 So it's still a public house then- amazing. The alterations to the White Horse roof, and the keeping of the lane shaped into the side of the building, at least looks better than the changes the TSB have made to the lovely old roof of the building next door. Looks like they've pulled that down and started again. The picture in 1902 (or 1897) of J.N Kemp putside his pub again looks to me like both the pictures previously mentioned (at the celebrations). I'm more convinced than ever it's him in both of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Kate, have been following this thread with great interest although I have no actual involvement. Great piece of research and some wonderful pictures. As I mentioned earlier in the thread my interest is in Takely just along the road from Dunmow and the Greygoose family, so if you ever come across the name please let me know. I am aware that one of the family Jonas Greygoose is recorded as ending up in the Dunmow Workhouse aged 90. The article on James Kemp refers to his campaigning for Colonel Lockwood. The Lockwood family for many generations owned the land, manors etc at Lambourne/ Abridge, where I grew up, The memorial to Lockwood (amongst many such) refers to him being an MP. Was he the MP for Dunmow ? Lambourne and Abridge war memorial is subject of my research see here www.oldlambourne.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 7 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Kate, have been following this thread with great interest although I have no actual involvement. Great piece of research and some wonderful pictures. As I mentioned earlier in the thread my interest is in Takely just along the road from Dunmow and the Greygoose family, so if you ever come across the name please let me know. I am aware that one of the family Jonas Greygoose is recorded as ending up in the Dunmow Workhouse aged 90. The article on James Kemp refers to his campaigning for Colonel Lockwood. The Lockwood family for many generations owned the land, manors etc at Lambourne/ Abridge, where I grew up, The memorial to Lockwood (amongst many such) refers to him being an MP. Was he the MP for Dunmow ? Lambourne and Abridge war memorial is subject of my research see here www.oldlambourne.co.uk Hi Patrick Glad you like the thread! After BottsGrey posted the picture of the church War Memorial, I did transcribe all the names and, as bobpike said, there isn't a Greygoose in sight. I'm not sure about Colonel Lockwood - I'll have to check into that. Ironically family legend has it that James Nelson Kemp would have gone into politics properly if it hadn't have been for the Great War. Is there a war memorial in Takely? If there is, I could take a drive over there at the weekend and see if I can spot a Greygoose. Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Hi Kate, yes I saw your posting about Greygoose and the Dunmow war memorial. I just thought that if you ever came across the name in your trawls through papers etc you might let me know. There is a memorial in Takeley in front of the Village Hall. There is no Greygoose on it. Considering there were several branches of the family in Takeley from 1620 onwards its a shame theres no record of any of them. Did you look at the Lambourne website its quite informative and some great local photographs. My brothers funeral was held at the Church there in October. Its a beautiful old church. Thanks Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 7 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2005 So it's still a public house then- amazing. The alterations to the White Horse roof, and the keeping of the lane shaped into the side of the building, at least looks better than the changes the TSB have made to the lovely old roof of the building next door. Looks like they've pulled that down and started again. The picture in 1902 (or 1897) of J.N Kemp putside his pub again looks to me like both the pictures previously mentioned (at the celebrations). I'm more convinced than ever it's him in both of them. The dormer windows in the roof were put in during the very early part of the 1900s. I've seen other photos/postcards of the town dated before 1910 that show the windows clearly in the roofline (although you can't see the rest of the building in the other photos). I would imagine the changes were made perhaps after the Kemps left to go to the Royal Oak - so probably about 1905ish. Did you notice in the modern colour photo that the green woodwork to the left of "Dorrin[gtons]" is the same woodwork as the b/w photo? The more I look at the two photos of "are they the same", the more I think they are both of James Nelson Kemp. I've seen another photo taken from the same vantage point/same day but with a band & crowd in the picture. I think the Kemps are following behind the band. The White Horse is about 10 or so buildings on the left hand side of the photo someway behind where the photographer is standing and the Kemps are walking in the direction of the pub. The b/w photo outside the White Horse seems to fit to 1897 with the children. The child next to the cart would have been 6 years old (she’s a girl!). The oldest girl in the group of children would be 15. The other girl – I’m not sure who she is although James Nelson Kemp’s sister and family also lived in the town so she could be a niece/cousin. And the two boys hiding in the corner? They are aged 12 and 10……. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 8 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2005 They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old; Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them. RIP Harold James Kemp - born Tottenham, Middlesex, 1885. KIA Zambia, 28 May 1916 Gordon Parnall Kemp – born Tottenham, Middlesex, 1887. KIA Ypres, 26 September 1917 This thread is dedicated to the memory of 84 men of Dunmow who didn’t return from the Great War and the mothers, fathers, wives, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters that they left behind. “They whom this tablet commemorates, at the call of King and country left all that was dear to them to endure hardships and face dangers. And then passed out of the sight of men by the path of duty and self-sacrifice giving up their lives that others might life in freedom. Let those who come after see to it that their names be not forgotten.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike10764 Posted 8 December , 2005 Share Posted 8 December , 2005 Great thread, pictures of them as children, marvellous..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 10 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2005 Great thread, pictures of them as children, marvellous..... Thank you Spike. Thank you to everyone that has posted and PMed me support during the writing of this thread. My original quest was to find a picture of Gordon Kemp so that he could be included in Passchendaele Archive's project. I found 3 pictures of him alongside 84 men (curtsey of BottsGrey) whose story I will retell one day. These stories include the two brothers who enlisted into the same regiment and died on the same day in the same battle and are buried in the same cemetery. The two boys, who came from the workhouse, and were sent to work on fishing trawlers as a chance to “better themselves” and were drowned at sea after u-boats struck their trawlers. The doctor’s son who was going to be a doctor in his father’s business. The newspaper shop owner who ran a hairdressing business alongside the main shop and had to stop that side of the business when he lost his son. The two Dunmow commanders of the 5th Essex Territorial Regiment who fought in Gallipoli and Palestine and survived the war but saw so many of their fellow Dunmowians killed. Walk around Dunmow today and you will find in the road names, house names and businesses still in Dunmow, the same family names that can be seen on the War Memorial: Hasler, Welch, Willett to name but a few. If you’re ever in Dunmow, take a look at the war memorial and remember those that fell. Chances are one day in the not to distance future you will visit Dunmow. But not as the Kemps saw it 100 years ago or even as I see it today. But, if BAA and the British government have their way, (which no doubt they will) you will see Dunmow as a sprawling mass that will be part of the largest airport in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 10 December , 2005 Share Posted 10 December , 2005 They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old; Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them. The photos of them as children are marvellous, Kate. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 10 December , 2005 Share Posted 10 December , 2005 Kate. Great thread. I will be stopping off in Dunmow next time I am passing through to visit the memorial. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boreenatra Posted 22 July , 2006 Share Posted 22 July , 2006 Just to add a little piece to this Dunmow thread,this is at St.Mary's Church. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 22 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2006 Just to add a little piece to this Dunmow thread,this is at St.Mary's Church. Regards Steve Thanks for that Steve. I notice that "Dorothy" was Dolly Gibbons. Do you know if she was the sister of Col Tom Gibbons of the 1/5th Essex? This is Tom Gibbons and his wife's graves in St Mary's Churchyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 12 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2006 A further bit to add to this thread.... The two Kemp brothers on Dunmow's war memorial were my grandfather's cousins. By a strange quirk of fate, I have lived in Dunmow for the last 3 years having moved to the town totally unaware of my family's previous connection. Last week my "internet cousin" (a direct descendant of Harold & Gordon's younger brother), sent me the following postcard that he had purchased on the internet. As you can see, it is addressed to a "Mrs Kemp" of the Royal Oak and is from "Elsie". Elsie was my grandfather's older sister. The "G" mentioned at the very bottom of the postcard was my grandfather, George. Nearly a hundred years after the postcard was first sent to Dunmow, it has now come home again. Returned to a descendent of the original sender by a descendant of the orginal addressee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 12 November , 2006 Share Posted 12 November , 2006 Kate - Extraordinary connection. Are our activities guided in some mischievous way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 12 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2006 Kate - Extraordinary connection. Are our activities guided in some mischievous way? Amazing isn't it? Maybe they are.... Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaymen Posted 12 November , 2006 Share Posted 12 November , 2006 Kate Absolutely amazing. Glyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest newstreetjoe Posted 2 December , 2006 Share Posted 2 December , 2006 A small section of Dunmow war memorial. This is towards the top of the section shown in the photo in post #7. Notice two names Harold J N Kemp Gordon P Kemp Hi Kate, Do you have a list of the names on the War Memorial? If not, I could provide one as I have been researching into a couple of my relatives whose names are on the memorial. I also have the original of the postcard of the donkey cart outside the Royal Oak and a beautifully detailed card of the unveiling of the War Memorial (attended by my mother, her sister and my grandmother). I've really enjoyed reading through your research and will be glad to add any bits and pieces from my own that would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce Posted 2 December , 2006 Share Posted 2 December , 2006 Kate, I have just discovered this thread and read it all the way through. What a wonderful piece of research....you are to be congratulated. But then, maybe I'm biased, since my late Mother was born in Sible Hedingham, brought up in Stisted, lived in High Garrett............. Bruce (on Merrseyside!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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