Who Truly Killed Baron Von Richtofen

[Guest JeremyScott]

This morning on the History Channel International, they had a deal about The Red Baron. I would like to start a deal. Who do you think killed him. Was it Roy Brown, or was it some Australian Infrantryman?

I would have to lean towards the infrantry .

[Auimfo]

I think from all the evidence that's been re-examined it's been almost conclusively proved (and sorry to all Canadian pals) that MvR was shot down by an Australian machinegunner on the ground and not Roy Brown.

I believe the favorite for bringing MvR down is Sgt Cedric Popkin, a vickers machinegunner with the 24th Machinegun Company but it's possible it may have been another Aussie - Robert Buie, a lewis gunner with the 53rd Battery.

Tim L.

[Guest JeremyScott]

They said that the shot that probably killed him was a rifle shot. I believe he was shot in the neck and that was what did him in.

[Borderman]

Nope, it was snoopy

[Guest JeremyScott]

In all honesty it was Johnny Horton

[AndyHollinger]

While Johnny Horton can be credited with winning the battle of New Orleans and sinking the Bismark, don't the Buckinghams get the credit for the Red Baron?

[Jim Clay]

While Johnny Horton can be credited with winning the battle of New Orleans and sinking the Bismark, don't the Buckinghams get the credit for the Red Baron?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right about Horton, Andy, but "Snoopy vs the Red Dragon" was by the Royal Guardsmen.

Jim

CEO Anoraks-R-Us Ltd

(UK div of Anoraks Inc.)

[AndyHollinger]

Thanks, I just knew it wasn't Horton ... and it was some Brit-band with ruffles ....

[Borden Battery]

The Death of the Red Baron as summarized by the following results of a "Google" search ...

The Royal Air Force (RAF) gave official credit for the Baron's death to No. 209 Squadron's Captain Roy Brown, whose combat report gives only the barest outline of the action: "Went back again and dived on pure red triplane which was firing on Lieut. May. I got a long burst into him and he went down vertical and was observed to crash by Lieut. Mellersh and Lieut. May."

In 1927, after gaining access to British Air Ministry files, Floyd Gibbons published a vivid account of Brown's victory in his best-selling popular book, The Red Knight of Germany. That same year, a first-person narrative of the action, "My Fight With Richthofen," was published in Liberty magazine. Although supposedly in Brown's own words, the article was clearly influenced by Gibbons and embroidered by Liberty's copywriters.

While these popular accounts of Brown's attack are of doubtful value, his claim is supported by testimony from another 209 Squadron Captain, O. C. LeBoutillier, and from a few key eyewitnesses on the ground. However, most recent analysts conclude that the attack came at least a minute before the Baron's final crash, probably too early to have inflicted the fatal wound.

Murdered On the Ground?

In 1925, a New York-based magazine called The Progressive published an article titled "Richthofen Was Murdered." The article reported rumors circulating in Germany that Richthofen had landed unscathed and that Canadian soldiers had jumped from their trenches and killed the Baron before he could climb out of his triplane. The rumors may have begun when German pilots from the Baron's "circus" reported witnessing the triplane's relatively smooth crash landing; at first, this fueled hopes that the Baron had been captured alive, and later, the speculation that he had been murdered. However, eyewitness accounts by the first ground troops to reach the crash site make this highly implausible.

Chasing Two Sopwith Camels?

In accounts collected in the 1930s, at least three eyewitnesses claimed that the Baron was pursuing two Sopwith Camels at the time he was brought down by ground fire. One of the most detailed of these claims was by Sergeant A. G. Franklyn, who was in charge of an Australian antiaircraft battery and claims to have shot down the Baron with his Lewis gun. Subsequent research has suggested that Franklyn probably confused the Red Baron's demise with his battery's downing of a German airplane the day after the Baron's death in a slightly different location.

Shot Down by a Two-Seater?

On the morning of April 21, 1918, the crew of two RE8 observation planes of the Australian Flying Corps' No. 3 Squadron reported a skirmish with two red-nosed Fokker triplanes. The squadron's commanding officer, Major D. V. J. Blake, submitted his squadron's report with other details implying that one of the attackers was Richthofen and that fire by an RE8 observer had brought the Baron down. However, the attack was at too high an altitude and too early to have been connected with the Baron's death. One explanation is that a pair of triplanes from the Baron's "circus," perhaps including the Baron himself, briefly dived on the two RE8s prior to encountering the Sopwith Camels of RAF No. 209 Squadron.

An Unknown Rifleman on the Ground?

P. J. Carisella and James W. Ryan's popular book Who Killed the Red Baron?, published in 1969, includes an account by Lieut. R. A. Wood of the 51st Battalion asserting that an unknown gunner from his unit brought down the Baron. "As soon as the planes had passed overhead my platoon opened up with rifle fire, and two sets of [Vickers] machine or Lewis guns on my left opened fire. Richthofen was seen to crash soon after one of these bursts." Another eyewitness interviewed in detail in 1975, Private V. J. Emery of 40th Battalion, supported Wood's claim. Emery believed that an unknown rifleman from Wood's platoon was in a better position to have fired the fatal shot than any of the other gunners in the area.

Shot Down by a Machine Gunner on the Ground?

NOVA's program focuses on the two best-known claims attributing Richthofen's death to machine gun fire from the ground. These were made by two different Australian antiaircraft crews who were stationed on the Morlancourt Ridge. In 1956, Gunner R. Buie, a Lewis gunner of the 53rd Battery, wrote to Australian newspapers about how he and Gunner W. J. Evans had opened fire on a German plane chasing a British one toward their position. "I started firing at the body of the German pilot directly through my peep sight," Buie wrote. "Fragments flew from the plane and it lessened speed. It came down a few hundred yards away." Most researchers reconstruct Buie and Evans' firing position as facing the oncoming triplane, making it unlikely that either could have fired the side-on shot that killed the Baron.

Sergeant C. B. Popkin, a Vickers gunner with the 24th Machine Gun Company, was in a more plausible position had he fired, as he claimed, when the Baron gave up chasing May and turned back toward the German lines. According to Popkin's statement recorded soon after the event: "As it came towards me, I opened fire a second time and observed at once that my fire took effect. The machine swerved, attempted to bank and make for the ground, and immediately crashed. The distance from the spot where the plane crashed and my gun was about 600 yards."

While Popkin's position seems the best match for the evidence of the Baron's wound, the long range and wide deflection angle required has led some to doubt the plausibility of his claim. Even Popkin himself had doubts; he told the Brisbane Courier in 1964 that "I am fairly certain it was my fire which caused the Baron to crash but it would be impossible to say definitely that I was responsible ... As to pinpointing without doubt the man who fired the fatal shot the controversy will never actually be resolved."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/redbaron/theories.html

[truthergw]

This morning on the History Channel International, they had a deal about The Red Baron. I would like to start a deal. Who do you think killed him. Was it Roy Brown, or was it some Australian Infrantryman?

I would have to lean towards the infrantry .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have just read Borden Battery's post. I think that the answer to your question is

" No one knows". I doubt if we ever will. After all, we are still arguing about who shot JFK.

[ian turner]

According to the autopsy performed on MvR he was shot in the side, the bullet severing his aorta. Even if the bullet had been found it would liklely have been a .303, so whether rifle, lewis or vickers it would not be identifiable. However it seems clear it was ground fire and not Roy Brown in persuit.

Ian

[squirrel]

Read some years ago that The Baron was shot from the front and below which would suggest that a persuing aircraft did not shoot him down.

[mcderms]

There was a program on the BBC earlier this year where they used ground-air lasers against a similar size, similar speed aircraft on the Barons flight path. This concluded that the Aussie Lewis gunner on the ground inflicted the fatal shots and that Brown's angle of fire was wrong and the distance too great.

The shame of this is that it tarnishes the reputation of a first rate ace in Brown.

[Borden Battery]

One main set of variables which complicates matters comes from aircraft flight itself as it moves through space over time. This does not take away from either argument of ground fire or pursuit aircraft fire and which Nation wishes to lay claim - however, it is a variable which cannot be fully accounted for.

An aircraft can rotate in the X, Y and Z axis - all at the same time. A fighter aircraft is designed with unstability to accentuate this. In addition, in a WWI aircraft the pilot can further twist and turn and bend-over in the cockpit to a significant degree.

Therefore, at any given point in time and space: what is up, what is down, what is left and what is right from the perspective of the target aircraft and the target pilot? If being chased by another aircraft [same X + Y + Z options] the options for bullet vector are compounded. Only the many soldiers of the ground, shooting up and/or over is constant.

In conclusion, we just cannot accurately reconstruct the relative positions or events, rule out all the necessary variables and come to a definative conclusion to the exclusion of all other possibilities and probabilities. All we know is the Red Baron, so often the hunter of other fighters and slow artillery observation planes, fell victim on this day.

However, it does create discussion and it does sell books.

[MikB]

I thought they found the bullet in his flying coat after it exited his left chest, and that the turnover wound it made as it passed through from the right was consistent with a range of 600 yards or so.

I'd have thought whether the bullet was fired from a Lewis gun, Vickers or Lee-Enfield would have been identifiable from the rifling engravings, but IIRC this wasn't discussed.

The case for the Lewis gun is stronger than any ground-bound Vickers by virtue of its mounting. The Vickers mounting would make it very difficult to engage aircraft, especially across the field of fire, and heaving it onto the parapet and firing off a sandbag was hardly practical!

Regards,

MikB

[ian turner]

Was not the claim for Roy Brown as the victor pressed by the fledgling RAF, rather than Brown himself?

Ian

[Terry]

From everything that I have read over the years, I would tend to support ground fire, although no particular rifleman or lewis gunner.

Roy Brown was pretty well exhausted and ill with influenza by then, having fought a long hard air war, taken part in many air combats,and won a DSC (he got a bar for the Red Baron). He sems to have ben a modest, decent guy who just wanted the war to be over.

I think the RAF very much wanted one of their own to bring down the Red Baron. Regardless, I'm sure that Wop May was happy to have Brown there that day!

[Edward_N_Kelly]

A perennial favourite subject of the war in the air in WWI. It recurs with monotonous regularity.....

It has been done to death with no evidence put forward to support any theory other than it was ground fire that killed the Red Baron.

See this thread last year ==> Death or the Red Baron and in particular my post of 24OCT04 pointing to an article by a friend of mine Dr Geoffrey Miller (a specialist in Sydney, Australia) and later posts containing further information.

Cheers

Edward

PS perhaps it might be worth a search before posting - you may find someone got there earlier and with better information....

[Blackblue]

There is a thorough examination in Issue 32 of Wartime (magazine of the Australian War Memorial). Brown broke of the engagement well before the crash near Sailly-Le-Sec when he turned South to avoid Morlancourt Ridge. After this Richthofen continued to pursue May for about a further mile or more along the ridge firing short bursts at him. May then climbed to avoid the ridge and Richthofen broke off the engagement and turned back towards the German lines. At this time he was fired on by Buie and Evans from the ridge (firing at the left side of the aircraft) and Popkin from below the ridgeline (firing at the right of the aircraft) from about 700 metres. Richtofen was alive when he landed and apparently said "Alles Kaput" (all is finished) to the first Australians on the scene. He made a controlled landing and appears to have even switched the aircrafts ignition off.

The post mortem examination found that there was a single bullet entry wound under the right armpit. He was examined three times by senior doctors who concluded that the fatal shot was entered his right side level with the ninth rib, which it fractured. The bullet then appears to have exited the left side of his chest about two inches higher than the entry wound. The spent projectile was actually found in his clothing. The conclusions were that the fatal shot was fired from long range from the right and slightly behind Richthofen's aircraft. The bullet was a .303 Mark VII with a Spitzer-type nose. This was used in the Vickers, Lewis, Lee Enfield rifle. I believe that Popkin's weapon was actually being employed in the Anti-Aircraft role at the time of the incident.

A number of books have examined the matter and concluded that, of the men credited with firing the fatal shot, Popkin was the most likely candidate. Certainly it appears that the shot was fired from Richthofen's right at long distance. Much of the wreckage was souvenired before the aircaft could be properly examined, making a thorough ballistics examination impossible. There were a large number of Australian infantrymen in the area and any one of them could have fired the fatal shot.

Rgds

Tim

[Ozzie]

There is a chapter covering this in The Anzacs by Patsy Adam-Smith, page 346.

Cheers

Kim

[Justin Moretti]

There was a program on the BBC earlier this year where they used ground-air lasers against a similar size, similar speed aircraft on the Barons flight path. This concluded that the Aussie Lewis gunner on the ground inflicted the fatal shots and that Brown's angle of fire was wrong and the distance too great.

The shame of this is that it tarnishes the reputation of a first rate ace in Brown.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it is also accepted that he reported exactly what he saw, and did so honestly. In the confusion of battle, even an ace can surely get it wrong sometimes.

I think it makes him an honest man who at worst was honestly mistaken. I don't feel he's tarnished at all.

[182 CEF]

I feel that if Roy Brown had been British or American there would be no dought as to who got him. Just like the contraversy over Billy Bishop...The fact remains Wop May survived and his post war exploites saved many live here in Canada while he worked as a bush pilot.

I have been trying to find out where Roy Browns Grave is..I know he died in Southern Ontario..but I cannot locate his Grave site. Any Ideas?

Dean

[squirrel]

If several people on the ground and in the air are firing at a 'plane then not unnaturally all are going to claim it when it goes down.

[Terry]

He was originally from Carleton Place, a tiny village near Ottawa which produced several Great War aces besides him, including Stearne Edwards (DSC & bar,16 victories), Murray Galbraith(DSC & bar, 6 victories),Lloyd Breadner(DSC,10 victories, later Air Chief Marshall,RCAF),and Jack Drummond (6 victories).

W.Brian Costello's book "A Nursery of the Air Force", the story of the Carleton Place aviators, states that Roy Brown is buried in Aurora,Ontario.

[Graham Smith]

Just watched a Channel 4 programme 'lost generation' where this topic was discussed.

A book was discovered in some archieves which revealed numerous letters about the dogfight.

It appears from the autopsy carried out that the bulet entered BVR on his right side and exited via his neck/shoulder.

Modern medical experts stated that he would have been alive for no more than 20 seconds after this 'hit'

Forensic examination of bullets fired into material with similar reactions to a human body also revealed that the shot must have been delivered from a range of about 600 yards.

The 303 bullet that killed BVR was found trapped in his outer clothing.

If it had been fired closer than 600 yards it would have fragmented within BVR's body

Result of this programme?

Brown was too far away and in the wrong position to inflict the fatal wound.

The Lewis gun was firing from an almost head on position.

The Vickers gun was in the correct position and range to fill all the evidential circumstances, therefore the real man to bring BVR down was (with 95% accuracy) the Australian Lewis machine gunner Sgt Popkin

However no one can discount an unknown ground shot from a similar location, as stated in earlier posts no doubt many men were having a shot at the infamous Red Baron seeing as he was so low and so deep into the allied lines.

To read a bit more of this programme visit here

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites...dogfight02.html