Mons Star Clasp

[Glenn]

According to the data there were 365,000 Mons Stars awarded. However there were only 145,000 clasp awarded, based on actually being under hostile fire.

Therefore what was the criteria for being under fire, and what were the 220,00 troops doing if they were in France and Belgium but not technically exposed to hostile fire??

Regards,

Glenn

[Staffsyeoman]

Glenn;

Again, from memory not having the docs to hand to quote exactly, but as I recall the clincher for the Clasp is 'within the range of enemy mobile artillery' - under actual enemy fire.

So the others would be in rear areas, not in the firing line, etc etc.

[Broznitsky]

Should award of the Clasp be mentioned on the medal rolls, or in any other area of service records?

Peter

[CROONAERT]

It should be mentioned ,Peter. Here's an example.....

Dave

[Neil Burns]

I'm going from memory, but if I recall the clasp was authorised after the star so that one would have to apply for the clasp after the award of the star.

I will check this when I get home but I think that was the case.

Neil

[Staffsyeoman]

The Star was announced in 1917; I think ribbons were issued 1918 and the Clasp was authorised in 1919.

I remember the final scene of 'Regeneration' where celebrating officers on Armistice Day 1918 at Craiglockhart Hospital had 14 Star ribbons with rosettes on. Impossible...

[Broznitsky]

Could somebody refresh my memory on the start and end dates for clasp entitlement please.

[Neil Burns]

5th August to 22nd November 1914

[munce]

Am I right in thinking the 220,000 who didn't get the clasp would include members of the Royal Navy on service outside Home waters, as well as troops not actually exposed to fire in France and Flanders?

[Paul Reed]

No; the only men to get this medal were those who served in France and Flanders... RN personnel on ships anywhere in the world did not qualify; the only Naval personnel who got it were those who served with the RND at Antwerp and Ostend i.e. on land.

[ianw]

Yes, it was the exclusivity of the award that made men like my grandfather so proud of being a member of that brotherhood entitled to wear the decoration . Private or General all wore it in the same style. My mother said that he grew 6 inches in height and lost 10 years in age when he put his medals on !

I wonder how many Old Contemptibles saw Christmas 1918 ? Does anyone have a figure ?

[Terry]

Are there opinions on just how ethical it would be to add a clasp to a star, knowing that the fellow was a casualty in, say August or September, 1914? Perhaps his MIC might not even say that a clasp had ever been awarded.

Obviously it would not be "his" clasp as issued to him by the government, but possibly he may have lost his own, or never even claimed it to start with.

I recently acquired a Canadian Efficiency Medal and discovered that the fellow was also entitled to a clasp. I have no qualms about obtaining one from a medal dealer to add to the medal.

Comments?

[Neil Burns]

hi Terry,

It's a slippery slope I think there should be mention of an award of the bar on his medal roll and if you locate the star say without a ribbon and replace the ribbon and the bar for your own collection then it's your call.

If someone should add a bar to a ribbon simply to increase the price (I'm not saying you are doing this!) whether the recepient were entitled or not then I feel it's dishonest. Were bars automatically awarded to soldiers killed?

Take care,

Neil

[Neil Burns]

Back Again,

I was going to post a photo but failed.

Quite often in US groupings the only named medal is either a local town or city medal these are often added to by dealers. I have a medal grouping to a 78th Division Machine Gunner from Paterson New Jersey teh only named medal is the Paterson Victory Medal the rest of the group is an unnamed New Jersey State Victory Medal and an unnamed (as is normal) US Victory Medal with 3 bars (St Mihiel, Meuse-Argonne, and Defensive Sector) which is correct for the 78th and also happen to be the most common 3 bar combination for the US Victory.

If i purchase an 'attributed' local US group I will keep it together and try not to pay more than the sum of the parts. If I purchase a named Local Service Medal I will research the recepient but not add medals even though the soldier may have been entitled to them but that's just me.

Take care,

Neil

[Terry]

Thanks, Neil. I have a group which clearly indicates on the MIC that he was awarded the clasp & roses, but when I purchased it, the ribbon was bare. The question is do I want to pay 25 pounds to a dealer for a clasp? (I probably will)

I think there are other cases, however, where a soldier was clearly in action during the time period (eg. wounded,etc.) but never applied for the clasp. Then things might get a bit more complicated.

Cheers from Canada,

Terry

[David_Bluestein]

After reading this very interesting thread, thought it appropriate to post a 'Mons Star' to help illustrate this very important service medal.

This one awarded to Capt. -------------------, 1st Bn., Northamptonshire Regiment. Shot in the back and killed, after coming out into No-Mans land under a German white flag, 17 September 1914 . Age 31

See photo below (Sorry hit the wrong key!)

[Neil Burns]

Hi David,

Thanks for posting that, one of these days I'll figure out how to post an image!

Terry,

If you've got a MIC that states he received the bar and it's for your own colection than I think you're on pretty safe ground.

By the way I talk a good game but the first Star and Bar I bought it took me three years to figure out if the unit was even entitled to one

Take care,

Neil

[stu]

Hello everyone,

As someone who is quite new to medal collecting I'm finding this thread very interesting.

With regard to the qualification of the clasp,can someone please advise me if other than the m.i.c.,is there any other way of finding out if the recipient was entitled to the clasp.

I have a trio to a Pte in the 5th Londons who qualified for the star on 5/11/14,but there is no mention of a clasp issued on the m.i.c.,however,I know of another trio to the 5th Londons where the qualifying date is the same as mine but this one received a clasp,needless to say I would be interested to find out if the entitlement to the clasp can be found on any other documents other than the m.i.c.

I would be grateful for any info anyone can give me.

Regards.

Stuart.

[Michael]

Stuart

Yes, the entitlement can be found on the 1914 Star medal roll (for ASC at least). here are some examples

[stu]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for that info,I will get that checked out.

Thanks.

Stuart

[Terry]

Most of you probably recall the article by Steve Brookes in the Sept 2002 OMRS Journal. There he listed four reasons why an entitled soldier might not have a clasp on his 1914 Star:

(a) some recipients were dead before the clasp came into existence

( some were unaware of the application method

© no-one of a higher rank was left from the unit who could substantiate their claim

(d) they just did not bother applying for it, through lack of interest or financial hardship.

He shows an example of a soldier who obviously earned the clasp, a KRRC private wounded during the appropriate period, but whose MIC makes no mention of entitlement to clasps.

He also came up with a survey of the clasp and star, and puts forward the following rough estimates:

- 378,000 stars issued

- 161,000 clasps issued (43%)

- 132,000 others qualified for clasp but never received it (35%)

- 85,000 star only (22%)

His study was based on a representative sampling of MIC's, but is certainly food for thought.

[Neil Burns]

Hi Terrry,

That's really amazing! Precisely the information I was looking for but couldn't find.

Ironically the Star & Bar should be more common than the Star alone!

I suspected that was the case that the Bars were a seperate issue but couldn't find the reference.

I sense that hundreds of dealers are removing Bars and raising prices for Stars with out Bars this very moment

Thanks,

Neil

[michaeldr]

the only Naval personnel who got it were those who served with the RND at Antwerp and Ostend i.e. on land.

Paul,

It's not quite so cut and dried as that, and indeed is the subject of a very interesting 250-odd page book by Fevyer and Wilson, "The 1914 Star to the Royal Navy & Royal Marines"

As well as the RND, the 1914 Star was also awarded to (from the index to the above vol)

Ambulance Hospital 65, Bunyear - Belgian Red Cross

Armoured Car Section (Attached R.N.A.S.)

Armoured Trains

Brigade and Divisional Staff

First British Field Hospital in Belgium

Machine Gun Parties (landed from the Belgian Coast Flotilla)

Miscellaneous Service (eg. Belgian Military Mission, Naval Ordinance Depot Dunkirk etc etc.)

Motor Owner Drivers

Motor Transport section

Mrs Stobart's Hospital Unit

R.N.A.S.

R.N. Sick Berth Staff - HMS Pembroke

Transport Staff

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Terry]

Neil,

The author stresses that his study was an unscientific survey, involving going through large numbers of MIC's, coming up with basic numbers and percentages, and expanding them to arrive at a reasonable estimate of what the entire issue of 1914 stars comprise.

If we go back to the start of this thread, it does seem amazing that, with the chaos that existed in Aug-Sept 1914 and the retreat,etc., that there could have been over two hundred thousand members of the BEF not hear a shot fired in anger. Using the author's numbers, it does seem more logical that of 378,000 recipients of the star, roughly 85,000 did not earn a clasp, but some 293,000 did (whether they actually got it or not).

[Neil Burns]

Hi Terry,

Very true it is hard to fathom that 200,000 men missed the fighting. I think Mr. Brookes' research seems reasonable though.

I do think that if the Star and Bar were instituted at the same time though the Star alone would be the scarcity,obviously, though the Bar would still command a premium for people always want a 'front line' combat type award.

I've really enjoyed this, thanks for the information.

Take care,

Neil