stevew Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 Do any of the Pals know anything about the Unknown Soldier. Which Battlefield he was found on, which cemetery etc............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 Steve, I'm sure that this Topic was discussed some months ago, but I just can't find that thread back. Can anyone else ? Even the Search facility doesn't help me. Aurel Sercu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 Well, I did find it, or better : I did not ... The Search machine works properly, and it gives : "The Unknown Warrior's Companions" in : Soldiers started 7 May 2003 - last reply : 10 May. But I can't find the actual thread. The oldest seems to be 7 June, on page 13. Prior to that has been removed ? Aurel Sercu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 Steve, I bought a book last year about the unknown soldier from the Shell Hole in Ypres. Unfortunatley its not with me now down here in Kosovo so I cannot give you the ISBN number or authors name. As someone who is getting into the First War I found it a beautiful read. Its a small book, I had it finished in one day. It furnishes you with a lot of details about his return journey to England, and I will unashamedly say I was quite moved about the book and the soldiers final journey home. Perhaps other Forum members who have the book can give you the details as they will have the book closer to hand. Regards Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 Do any of the Pals know anything about the Unknown Soldier. Which Battlefield he was found on, which cemetery etc............ Steve, The whole point of the exercise is that we DON'T know. Six sets of unidentifable remains were recovered from six different battlefields, brought to a central location, where someone (I'm sure Pals can supply the details) chose one set to be honoured, to represent the nation's dead. The man who did the choosing could not know where each body had been found. So, all we do know is that he was in all probability a soldier, who definately died on the Western Front, like the majority of Britain's war dead. The French enacted the same process, indeed I think they were the ones who came up with the original idea. Rev David Railton was a prime mover of adopting an Unknown Warrior to lie among the nation's most revered dead in Westminster Abbey. He was deliberately placed to lie in the path of all visitors entering the Abbey, forcing them to pause for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Working in Westminster, I very often use to walk around the cloisters at lunchtime before they started to charge an entry fee. The tomb of the Unknown Warrior, with its garland of poppies is a very powerful yet subtle memorial. Apart from the need for anonymity and being a national symbol, it gives those who lost loved ones with no known grave a place to mourn. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gem22 Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Steve I've read the same book that the others have mentioned and Kate is quite right with her explanation. Not only were bodies collected from six different battlefields but six different parties of troops selected them. They were under strict instructions to select only bodies that had no means of identification whatsoever; other than sufficient to identify them as British. No rank, regiment, or other identifying marks were collected. The remains were taken to a chapel and delivery was done so that no two collecting parties met. A single body was selected from the six, off-hand I cannot remember who made the choice, but he did not know from which battlefield the remains had come. The body was shipped home on H.M.S Verdun, I believe, with an escort of 6 'W' class destroyers. The body was kept overnight in Dover under guard. I understand that pupils from my old school, Duke of York's RMS in Dover, formed part of the honour guard. From Dover the body was taken by train to London and on to Westminster. Hope that helps. If you need more I will dig out the book and let you have details. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 A retired CWGC- headgardener who lives in Ypres once told me that his father helped digging up one of the bodies from which the unknown soldier was to be chosen at Bleuet Farm cemetery ( not so far from Essex farm). I discussed this several times with Aurel Sercu, who made some interesting remarks: 1. It was said that the unknown soldier was picked from a cemetery begun early in the war. Most soldiers who lie burried in Bleuet farm died in 1917. 2. There are also Germans burried at Bleuet farm. Just in case that the story is true, Let's hope that the men who dug up the body had a good look at what was left of the uniform first... Personally, I doubt if there is any truth in this story, cause Bleuet farm just doesn't seem to fit the requirements set by the government. But my source seemed to be quite certain of his case... He worked himself at Bleuet farm for more than 25 years. regards, Bert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 The book referred to by Garth and Iain is "The Story of the Unknown Warrior" by Michael Gavaghan, (M&L Publications, Preston, Lancashire, 1995). Although it's a slim book, it tells what is basically a simple story, so it covers just about everything there is to tell. And as others have said, it's an excellent read. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 To add weight to Bert's account - I have heard the Bleuet Farm CWGC story, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Just a note replying to something Aurel said way above. No threads are removed from the forum. However you need to take care when searching. Alongside the box where you enter the word(s) you are looking for is a little drop-down box. You can set how far back in history you wish to look...just a day..a year...forever. This is set to default to the last 30 days, so anything older will be missed unless you choose to set it to something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Thanks, Chris, Deep in my heart I had hoped that somehow you would notice and come to the rescue, like a shepherd tending his flock. Also the ones who apparently do not know how to handle the search facilities, quote facility etc. Aurel Sercu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevew Posted 7 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Thanks to everyone for all those replies. I have to admit to being very much in the dark on this subject. I guessed, wrongly, that the Unknown Soldier was selected in a similar manner to that of the Australian and Canadian soldier (although, I do know that it was many years earlier than the Canadain and Australian Solidier!!). I had no idea that it was one of six. I have just looked on Amazon for the book, The Story of the Unknown Warrior, but it is currently unavailable, as I am visiting the Ieper next month, I will see if it is in the Shell Hole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Steve I'm interested to know how the Austrailian & Canadian unknown soldiers were selected. Also I have a nagging thought in the back of my mind that I saw or heard something which would indicate that one of the six candidates may have been Australian. I remember a commentary saying something like 'One Tommy, One Jock, One ANZAC, etc' Can't place where I heard it & it may be my memory placing tricks on me. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Rev David Railton was a prime mover of adopting an Unknown Warrior to lie among the nation's most revered dead in Westminster Abbey. As well as the excellent Gavaghan book, there is also a chapter on the Unknown Warrior in "The Age of Illusion" by Ronald Blythe (pub 1963). I confess the having a strong interest in David Railton. He was padre to 141 Bde, 47 Div - the 19th Londons were one of the battalions in that brigade. He was indeed a prime mover and appears to have had an idea along these lines as early as 1916. However it was not until he wrote a letter in August 1920 to the Dean of Westminster which kick started the process. There is a chapter on Railton in "God on Our Side - The British Padre in World War 1" by Michael Moynihan (1983). Railton wrote his own account "The Origin of the Unknown Warrior's Grave" in a 1931 edition of "Our Empire" magazine. The French did have a similar process, but I think their unknown may have been selected by a poilu who was either blind or blindfolded and turned round so he was disoriented. The 5 bodies thate were not chosen surround the wooden cross in the centre of the Cimetiere du Faubourg-Pave in Verdun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 The London 'Unknown Soldier' was originally meant to represent the whole Empire & therefore could have been an Aussie, Kiwi etc. The instruction that the bodies selected had to be 'British' did not necessarily mean from the UK. However, the Canadians and Aussies now have their own 'Unknown' and the New Zealanders are soon to follow suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 The organisation of the French Unknown Warrior was under the direction of Andre Maginot (of WW2 line fame) Minister of Pensions, who had been wounded as a sergeant at Verdun. He walked with two sticks and despite being Under Secretary of State in 1914 he volunteered as an ordinary soldier. Eight heroes were exhumed from a spot chosen at random and kept rigorously secret in each of eight districts and sent to Verdun. The eight arrived at Verdun one after the other during the 9th November 1920, the same day the British Unknown Warrior was buried in Westminster. As soon as a coffin arrived it was met by the commander of the citadel and two companies of troops as a guard of honour and escorted to a long casement. The coffins were draped in the Tricolour and had palms and a wooden cross placed on them and were arranged in two rows of four with an Honour Guard . The population of Verdun queued up to pass in procession and pay homage, the last one passing just after midnight. On the 19th November Maginot , accompanied by another disabled member of the government and the Bishop of Verdun, gave Private Auguste Tain, a survivor of the 234th Regiment who fought at Verdun, Champagne and Alsace ,a bunch of flowers gathered from among the graves of the dead of the Verdun battlefield and instructed him to place it on one of the coffins. Tain walked slowly twice round them and then placed the flowers on the third coffin of the left hand row. The Marseilles was sounded and the coffin was removed to a '75 gun-carriage to be escorted to the railway station for it's journey to Paris, before leaving the citadel a brass plate was attached with the inscription ' The French Soldier '. On the 11th November 1920 the French interred the Unkown Warrior beneath the Arc de Triomphe with full honours. The remaining seven coffins were interred in the Chapel of the Ossuary at Verdun. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevew Posted 7 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2003 I'm interested to know how the Austrailian & Canadian unknown soldiers were selected. Will, I suppose I am guessing really!! The Australian Unknown Soldier came from Villers-Bretonneux (from the Adelaide cemetery), which is a town with very strong Australian links, which is why I am guessing at why this area was chosen, and then I am guessing that an unknown soldier of the AIF was selected at random. I am also guessing that the Canadian (taken from Cabaret Rouge cemetery) was also similarly chosen at random. I know you shouldn't make guesses/assumptions..............but why not until I found out something different!! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 2 September , 2003 Share Posted 2 September , 2003 and the New Zealanders are soon to follow suit. Yes, now, in 2003! All the others appear to have chosen, reburied, etc in the 1920s. ........................................................ The Ministry for Culture and Heritage is repatriating the body of an Unknown Warrior for burial at the National War Memorial in Buckle Street, Wellington. The Tomb of the Unknown Warrior will serve as a focus of remembrance of the sacrifice made by New Zealand servicemen and women in overseas wars. Of the approximately 30,000 New Zealand fatalities of the wars of the twentieth century, there were 9,000 whose identity could not be determined or whose bodies were never recovered. Many were known to be New Zealanders by their uniform or badges, but could not otherwise be identified. One unknown New Zealand soldier of World War One will be selected to return to New Zealand. Because the body is unknown, we will not know who he is except that he is a New Zealander. We will not know his name, rank, regiment, race, religion or any other detail of his life. He represents all New Zealanders who became lost to their families through war, and could be related to almost any of us. This project is being carried out in co-operation with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which has responsibility for all Commonwealth war graves from World War One and Two. The body of the Unknown Warrior will be chosen by the Commission from among the unknown New Zealand soldiers buried in its cemeteries in France and handed over to a representative of New Zealand at an appropriate ceremony. The Commission will choose the remains from an area where the greatest number of the various New Zealand regiments and battalions are known to have fought. The Unknown Warrior will then return to New Zealand, preferably on a RNZAF aircraft and with an accompanying honour guard. It is planned that the Unknown Warrior will lie in state in Parliament Buildings for a period to allow New Zealanders to pay their respects. There will be a State funeral for the Unknown Warrior at the Wellington Cathedral of St Paul. A funeral procession will then convey the Unknown Warrior to the National War Memorial for an interment ceremony at the Tomb. ........................................................... As a NZer, I heartily disapprove of this move by my government! If it was not good enough to be done at the event or soon after, why bother now! The Unknown Warrior in Westminster Abbey represents NZers as well as British to me! Not only that, after 85 years, just how much is left in any grave to be dug up, taken half way across the world and reinterred! I consider this a political ploy by the present government. However, the High Court has apparently stated that the new building does not comply with the legalities of a Historical Site, and may prevent it's being built Court's judgement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 2 September , 2003 Share Posted 2 September , 2003 Christine Unless I have misunderstood your posting, you are incorrect about the Australian & Canadian Unknown Soldiers. The Australian was returned home in 1993 and the Canadian in 2000 - not the 1920s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 3 September , 2003 Share Posted 3 September , 2003 Oh, then I misunderstood previous postings. It seemed that all of them were soon after the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 3 September , 2003 Share Posted 3 September , 2003 The remaining seven coffins were interred in the Chapel of the Ossuary at Verdun. I beg to differ, they are buried at Faubourg-Pave cemetery: http://www.xs4all.nl/~aur/Cemeteries/F_Fau...ubourg-Pave.htm Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 3 September , 2003 Share Posted 3 September , 2003 I am also guessing that the Canadian (taken from Cabaret Rouge cemetery) was also similarly chosen at random. As Steve mentioned, the Canadian Unknown Soldier came from the Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery, Souchez, Plot 8, Row E, Grave 7. The replaced headstone reads: THE FORMER GRAVE OF AN UNKNOWN CANADIAN SOLDIER OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR. HIS REMAINS WERE REMOVED ON 25 MAY 2000 AND NOW LIE INTERRED AT THE NATIONAL WAR MEMORIAL IN OTTAWA CANADA. All the accounts I've read suggests the unidentified Canadian soldier was selected at random however, a conscience decision was made that the Unknown Soldier should come from a cemetery in the vicinity of Vimy Ridge. For more information on the Canadian Tomb of the Unknown Soldier check out the Veterans Affairs Canada's web site. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 3 September , 2003 Share Posted 3 September , 2003 The remaining seven coffins were interred in the Chapel of the Ossuary at Verdun. I beg to differ, they are buried at Faubourg-Pave cemetery: http://www.xs4all.nl/~aur/Cemeteries/F_Fau...ubourg-Pave.htm Regards, Marco Marco, I was quoting General Weygand from his article in ' I Was There ' part 48, page 1928. What info on Fauberg-Pave do you have? The article is 1938 publishing date. Have they been moved or is Weygand wrong? Where is Fauberg-Pave in relation to Verdun? Were they moved after WW2 perhaps? Intriguing. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 3 September , 2003 Share Posted 3 September , 2003 Faubourg Pave is within the town. That is where the others are by what I was told there. I cannot remember however, who are the men in the visible coffins at Notre Dame de Lorette? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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