stiletto_33853 Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Arm, I have an account of a Trench Raid on the night of the 25th-26th June 1916, at Ovillers la Boiselle where they were used, if you need it. The account is a shortened version of a lecture to the Staff College in 1937 given by Captain G.H Anderson, C.B.E., D.S.O.,M.C. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 8 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Whilst I would be the first to say that my knowledge and reading on the subject of the great war is not the most comprehensive, I still find this post most astonishing that there seems to be many references to the use of this weapon. I find it especially 'strange' that thye were used around and at the time of the Somme battles. Andy, I would be pleased to read the account you have as whilst it was first done for another I am finding myself curious as to the use of this weapon during the war. regards Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 I find it especially 'strange' that they were used around and at the time of the Somme battles. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why do you find that strange? I am sure I also have references to them at Loos, or maybe even as early as Aubers Ridge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 8 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Paul, My original, and unknowledgable conception, was that thye were a far more modern weapon. I am obviously having to reavaluate this premise. If I take a unknowledgable stance to the Somme battles, which is not hard for me, then my conception would be of Generals believing the guns had broken the wire and the troops would be able to advance across unapposed at a steady walk. The issuing of these type of weapons shows atleast an ability to realise that the wire would not be broken and that something might be needed to help the PBI. As i said had not heard of this weapon being used. And even given my lack of knowledge I find this hard to realsie they were issued/used more than I had realised. regards Arm Ps Paul I would be interested if you have any records on the use at Loos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Arm, Here it is, just had to scan it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Page 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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stiletto_33853 Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Finally Page 9, Hope it is of interest to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Doubled up on one page so deleted it so my page numbers are one out. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Given the identification of the prisoner as being from I.R. 180 and the date of the raid the following men may have been killed as a result of the raid or the unlucky man shot by error. The men listed below were killed in action or died from wounds received on 26 June 1916. Theis, Philipp Landsturm Recruit Rupp, Christian Gefreiter Linder, Georg Musketier Nadler, Anton Kriegsfreiwilliger Baier, Andreas Unteroffizier Barner, Ernst Musketier Gaab, Erwin Ersatz Reservist Möhrmann, Karl Musketier Grünewald, Otto Unteroffizier Ricker, Max Leutnant der Reserve Seibold, Karl Musketier Keinath, Johannes Schütze Names of the wounded and the P.O.W. will hopefully be available before too long as well and perhaps a clear idea of what men may have been involved in the raid as casualties. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Ralph, Great stuff, Poor old Arm's Bangalore Torpedoes taking a back seat but a good thread. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 8 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Andy' A very interesting account. I have also just looked up an account in 'The War the infantry knew', a little short but another reference nonetheless. Ralph you go ahead and hijack my thread. It is an interesting article to read and its great that you can find something different out of it to what I read it for. Thanks again Andy for taking the time to scan and post, much appreciated regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 9 October , 2005 Share Posted 9 October , 2005 Arm, Glad that it was of some use to you, always a pleasure. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 9 October , 2005 Share Posted 9 October , 2005 The account of the raid was very interesting. The preparation for the raid displayed a lot of the attributes of storm troop preparation and tactics; selection of a sub-set of the men, presumably the most fit, agressive, etc.; thorough training for an operation, often on a mock-up of the actual position that was to be stormed; selection of appropriate weapons and equipment for the job, often not the usual infantry equipment; and a well-designed, practiced tactical plan. When combatants on the Western Front bothered to take these steps, their enterprise seemed to usually succeed. The French did it sometimes; for example, when they were preparing to take back the important Verdun forts that they had lost, e.g., Fort Douaumont. Of course, generally such preparations were more practable for small-scale actions that would not, individually, have a great effect on the course of the war. In the second half of the war the German Army made great efforts to disseminate this approach throughout their army, with mixed results. Since I study the Great War principally from the German side I see this sort of preparation mostly among their forces, of course, especially among the formal storm units. But the same approach was sometimes used by the Allies, and with good effect. It was interesting to read an example of it in action, even on a very small scale. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 9 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2005 Arm, In the muster roll of 'C' Company, 9th Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers for the 1st July, There are 3 Bangalore Torpedoe carriers listed and 2 men listed as Bangalore Torpedoe Specialists! Regards Andy <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is especially interesting to see a designated 'position' for this within the battalion set up. Does anyone else have examples of this to see if this was an established job within the battalion set up across the BEF? Andy were the men asigned to this Battalion men or attatched Ordanance or engineers etc? regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 9 October , 2005 Share Posted 9 October , 2005 Arm, To the best of my knowledge they were all men of the Battalion and checking through the War Diary also there is no mention of any attatched Engineers or Ordanance men. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 9 October , 2005 Share Posted 9 October , 2005 Regimental Account with mention of the Bangalore Torpedoes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 9 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2005 Andy, I assume that this raid would be considered a large raid given the amount of men and munitions used? I always picture a small quiet troop slipping quietly into the enmy position and back with a prisioner ot two. Anyway it does seem as if Bangalores were very common among battalion units. regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 9 October , 2005 Share Posted 9 October , 2005 Hi Arm, I would assume so, the Regimental History say about 50 men attacking a small salient in the trenches. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 11 October , 2005 Share Posted 11 October , 2005 Arm, Checked the Battalion War Diary today, it states that the men using the bangalore torpedoes were specially trained. Once again though no mention of outside units for these. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 12 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 October , 2005 So does that mean that Division or Corps ran Bangalore training schools to? This is really proving to be, to me atleast, a far more wide spread area of use than i thought. regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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