2nd Gaza

[Ozzie]

I am looking for any references from diaries, letters, etc for the terrain around Gaza, specifically during 2nd Gaza.

I have references to the British being in the line with the Light Horse and that tanks were used, so am hoping someone may have some notes about the terrian.

Thanks

Kim

[Peter Beckett]

Kim,

not directly answering your query but have you seen the Great War supplement in this weeks Weekly Times?

its on Sinai and Palestine with lots of pictures. (March 1916 - October 1918)

Peter

in rainy Hastings

[Ozzie]

Thanks Peter, I'll get a copy. They are interested in doing a piece on Lachie McGrath of the 8th. Got to talk to them about it.

Cheers

Kim

[wroclaw]

Kim,

not directly answering your query but have you seen the Great War supplement in this weeks Weekly Times?

its on Sinai and Palestine with lots of pictures. (March 1916 - October 1918)

Peter

in rainy Hastings 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is there a way this issue could be viewed by us non-Australians? do they have an on-line version?

regards

[Peter Beckett]

wroclaw,

I dont think so. The magazine handouts with the Weekly Times are spread over 6 weeks. There is no mention of any digital connections but a footnote on the last page of this issue mentions that the pictures can be purchased from the AWM at www.awm.gov.au by quoting the ref number next to each picture. The series is based on the book : Anzac, an illustrated History 1914-1918 published by Hardie Grant books and edited by Richard Pelvin. Aust RRP A$59.95

Peter

[wroclaw]

wroclaw,

I dont think so. The magazine handouts with the Weekly Times are spread over 6 weeks. There is no mention of any digital connections but a footnote on the last page of this issue mentions that the pictures can be purchased from the AWM at www.awm.gov.au by quoting the ref number next to each picture. The series is based on the book : Anzac, an illustrated History 1914-1918 published by Hardie Grant books and edited by Richard Pelvin. Aust RRP A$59.95

Peter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks mate!

I wonder if they have any pictures there directly from the Ayun Kara and Mgahr battle fields?

[Ozzie]

Any one interested in an Illustrated History.

Anzac, An Illustrated History 1914-1918. Published by Hardie Grant Books and edited by Richard Pelvin.

Wroclaw, sent you a PM.

Cheers

Kim

[steve fuller]

Hi Kim

Hope the below is useful ...

6 Tanks were earmarked for the attack and, as the infantry started their attack on the Ali Muntar strongpoint (S.East of Gaza), Gas was used for the first time.

The 53rd Div attacked on the extreme left, between Sand dunes and the Sea, 156th and 157th Brigades of the 52nd Div attacked the centre at Gaza and Ali Mintar and 161st & 162nd Brigades of the 54th Division attacked the right between Gaza and the "Tank Redoubt". The 161st Brigaed attacked what was to be known as Tank Redoubt and had the 1st & 3rd Btns of the (Australian) Imperial Camel Corps to their right. They dismounted 4000 yards in front of the defences. A single tank called "The Nutty" (always puts a smile on my face!!) advanced with them & drew artillery fire, as you would expect. It wandered along a "wayward path" until it reached the summit of the knoll, where it was set uopn by 4 Field guns & set alight. I think this is "The Nutty" but have never been able to confirm for sure ...

Only around 30 of the Australian Camels & 20 British Infantry reached the 1st line of trenches & bayonet charged the garrison of around 600 turks, who broke & fled to the 2nd line of trenches. Sounds terrific in iteslf, but I suspect the prescence of the tank had something to do with that!! They held on unsupported for around 2 hours but had to withdraw, as they were all wounded & expected a counter attack.

To the right of Tank Redoubt the 3rd Camels advanced between two redoubts & made the furthest advances of the battle. They actually crossed the Gaza Beersheeba road & set up on 2 hills called "Jack" & "Jill"!

The Eastern end of the redoubts (around Atawineh & Suasage Ridge) were attacked by the 3rd & 4th Australian ight Horse Brigades & 5th Mounted Brigade of the Imperial Mounted Division. Thheir Generals orders were a biit fluffy so he chose to try & press home a breakthrough attack, when he wasnt "supposed to". The 3rd Bgde attacked along the Atawineh Ridge & got to within 500 yards of the Turkish trenches. The 4th & 5th faired little better, so they didnt get to within bayonet charging distance & had to call it off.

The 52nd & 53rd Divisions lost over 1800 between them, the 54th almost 3000 casualties, & almost 1000 casualties were sustained between the ANZAC Div, Imperial Div & Camel Brigades.

[steve fuller]

Positions mid afternoon ...

[Lost in Tilloy]

Kim

In his book 'The History of the 52nd Division' Lieut-Col Thomson gives this description of the terrain around the time of 2nd Gaza:

'There now followed a period of feverish preparation on both sides. The Turks knew that the attack was coming and dug a series of immensely strong entrenchments, which ran from the sea, east of Gaza, through the cactus gardens, to the hills about Muntar. Thence it ran north-east along the ridges for a couple of miles, so that Gaza was covered on two sides. South-east of Muntar, where the table-land was lower, there was an apparent gap of two or three miles, a death-trap for an attacking force if the high ground on either side were held by the defenders. Beyond this to the south-eastward, where the ground rose, were more trench systems as far as the Atawineh ridge seven miles from the town. A chain of posts continued the line to Tel el Sharia, another nine miles, prohibiting any wide outflanking movement.

On the Mansura and Sheikh Abbas ridges there were a few trenches and observation posts. South-west of this there were no trenches of importance. The Turkish forces defending this natural fortress, and the position on its left flank running to Beersheba, eventually amounted to one cavalry and five infantry divisions, with plenty of heavy artillery, probably about 250,000 men, or about three-quarters of the strength of Gen. Murray's force.'

Regards

LIT

[David McDonald]

My maternal grandfather James Armour, Private 240858 1/5th Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers 52 (Lowland) Division was wounded in this battle on the 19th April 1917 sustaining gunshot wounds to the right thigh. As a result of these wounds he was transferred to the 27th General Hospital at Cairo where he spent several weeks before returning to the field. Enjoyed reading the contributions on this topic.

David.

[Ozzie]

You guys are fan flamin' tastic.

Steve that photo is great as is the map.

Lost, thanks for your transcription, it helps no end.

Shall digest your posts along with the other stuff I've got and see what drifts up.

Cheers

Kim

[Ozzie]

Thanks Tony, but Ballarat's about five hours away. But will try to have a look elsewhere.

Ta

Kim

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

The Camel Corps is my area and I see your map is wrong in the postion of the units involved.

The 1st Anzac Camel Bn should be the 2nd symbole from the left attacking the Tank Redoubt, while the first symbole should be a Britsh Inf Bde of the 54th Div. That Bde had the 1/5th Norfolks and 8th Hants in it (the name escapes me without looking).

Now the symbole for the 4th LH Bde should be the 3rd Anzac Camel Bn which attacked the Jack and Jill redoubts which were to the right of the waddi (between Y waddi symbole) slightly behind the Gaza - Beersheba road, these redoubts don't appear to be on the map?

The 4th LH Bde should be in the place of the unnamed LH Bde symbole between the 3rd and 4th LH Bde's on the map.

Just to add the 4th LH Bde was short one regt (4th ALHR) and had only the 11th and 12th ALHR's on the day.

Cheers

S.B

[joseph]

Ozzie,

Just read this, maybe some help,

E. Kearsey Operations in Egypt and Palestine.

Gaza, in addition to being in a strategically important position, was naturally strong and had been artificially strengthened. Ali Muntar, a conical hill on the south-east of the city, dominated the town and the country in its vicinity. From Ali Muntar due west were lines of trenches running back towards Sheikh Hassan, north west of Gaza. Samson Ridge, a prominent feature south-west of Gaza, was not fortified, but there were heavy sand dunes leading up to it from the south. Round Gaza itself was a series of cultivated plots enclosed by thick, high cactus hedges. Between the Wadi Ghazze (6000 yards at its nearest point to Gaza) and Gaza was open country.

One tank captured a lunette on Outpost Hill before it was unfortunately hit by the enemy’s shells; another tank, before it became a casualty, inflicted heavy casualties on an enemy redoubt in the vicinity of Khirbet Sihan.

Regards charles

[Ozzie]

Steve,

Can you post the right map?

Charles, thankyou, very concise.

Cheers

Kim

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Sorry but I don't have that detailed a map but a look at the Australian History vol VII.

To follow from left to right of the Cavalry symboles on that map.

The first cav symbole is the British 163rd Bde of the 54th Div.

2nd cav symbole - 1st Anzac Camel Bn,

3rd cav symbole - 3rd Anzac Camel Bn,

4th cav symbole - 4th ALHB.

The rest I am unsure of without looking at that chapter.

The Sheikh Abbas ridge is where the Camel Bde formed up and should be the shaded area between the writting ICC bde and 4th ALH Bde on your map.

I hope you can find the position of the Jack and Jill redoubts not shown on your map but between the Y of the waddi Khirbet Sihan.

The 3rd Camel Bn attacked these two redoubts capturing them on the day.

Cheers

S.B

[Ozzie]

Thanks mate.

Cheers

Kim

[Guest Tosun Saral]

I am looking for any references from diaries, letters, etc for the terrain around Gaza, specifically during 2nd Gaza.

I have references to the British being in the line with the Light Horse and that tanks were used, so am hoping someone may have some notes about the terrian.

Thanks

Kim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Ozzie, As our dear friend Steve wrote dawn pages. I have a picture of the same tank with a Turkish soldier standing beside it. This picture was published in "Harp Mecmuası n.20, p.314" the War Magazine. Unfortunately I can not send the picture through this forum. Everytime I try I can not sucsess. saraltosun@yahoo.co.uk is may adress. If you write me I can send you.

Tosun Saral

Retired bank Manager

Lt. of reserve, Signal Corps

[Guest Tosun Saral]

I am looking for any references from diaries, letters, etc for the terrain around Gaza, specifically during 2nd Gaza.

I have references to the British being in the line with the Light Horse and that tanks were used, so am hoping someone may have some notes about the terrian.

Thanks

Kim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Ozzie, Sorry my poor translation:

The fight between the Turks and British with bayonets, butts of rifles was never lasting. The human mind and military logic could not understand such a fighting. The battlefield was full of wounded and dead. The earth turned red because of blood. The fight continued until it was dark. British had much men power. For that reason they hold their positions. Turks were a few. Those few braves hold their positions too. Turks preferred to die instead of running back or get captured. At last darkness finished the fight. They all stayed where they were. The Turkish commander received a telegram from his headquarters “. My salutations to the defenders of Gazze. Be patient until day break.” Defenders of Gazze was 125th Infantry Regiment. The Division was far away from them. But they new that they will come for help. But the enemy calculated that possibility had a extra unit for any reinforcement. For that reason the 125th must resist bravely. All night long the regiment fortificated the Gazze streets for a new fight. They swored to die. The Regimental Commander ordered to bring the Banner to the first trench. Regiment 125 was a honourable regiment that fought in Trablusgarb(Libya) and Gallipoli. The commander spoke to his men “Friends, We all know the enemy very well. They are much more then us, they have fresh units, but dont forget Allah is more powerfull then every unit. Allah will help us. This honourable banner will not get into the hands of the enemy. We will be glorious or this Gazze will be our Grave.” Nearly at day break the enemy began to advance. The sentries saw dark shadows advancing. At the time of day break Turks saw the advancing enemy in great numbers. It was obvious that the enemy wanted to finish the task that they couldnt did last day. Suddenly Turkish artilarry of the division begun to fire on the advancing enemy. The regiments commander ordered to the commander of the second battalion a bayonet attack to Mantar Tepe (Cork Hill)which was under the enemy hands and had a strategic position. Under artilarry bombardement second battalion charged fixed bayonets. The dear sons of the Turkish homeland was falling one by one. Reserve Lt. Arif Efendi, the ordonance officer of the battalion, went ehead to bring a massage. As he saw wounded and dead bodies of his beloved soldiers, he didn’t hesitate for a moment to attack to the enemy by taking the rife of heavely wounded master sergeant Ali from Tarsus. Master Sergeant Ali from Tarsus said to his officer “ Took my rifle Efendi. Attack the enemy. I couldn’t kill enough of them. Kill them for me” Reserve Lt. Arif Efendi advanced to the enemy with fixed bayonet. The regained the Cork Hill. Suddenly a shell exploded. Arif fall dead. The commader of the Company wrote to the battalion. “We captured the Hill but we lost Arif.”

War Magazine “Harb Mecmuası, No: 20, p.314)

[Ozzie]

Tosun Saral,

Thankyou very much for your great effort in translating this. It certainly gives me an insight into the Turkish side of the battle. Something we don't get to see a lot of, until now with people like yourself willing to translate the history.

Thankyou

Kim

[stevenbecker]

Yes Mate,

Thank you for the discription of the fighting at Gaza.

But I think your reference refers to the 1st Battle of Gaza not the 2nd Battle of Gaza.

By Turkish records I have the 125th Turkish Regt was in Reserve on the 19th April 1917 around the village of Bevti Cered north of the town of Gaza.

On the morning of the 19th April once the direction of Allied Cavarly became clear the 125th Regt was sent to counter attack the redoubts along the Sihan line.

These included the Tank Reoubt partly captured by the British and Camel Corps, and the Jack and Jill redoubts to the Tank redoubts east next to the waddi Sihan which had been captured by the Camel Corps.

I believe this regt also counter attacked the Atawineh redoubt which had in part been attacked by the Imperial Mounted Diviison.

So the discription you give must be the 1st Gaza where the 53rd Turkish Divison held Gaza against the British Infantry attacks.

Can you help with the placing of the Mantar Tepe (Cork Hill) as my maps of both battles don't show any hills by that name but for the Ali el Muntar. This can be because we called it by another name but the Turkish map I have for the 2nd Gaza doesn't show any hills by that name also.

I hope that helps

S.B

[wroclaw]

Hi Kim

Hope the below is useful ...

6 Tanks were earmarked for the attack and, as the infantry started their attack on the Ali Muntar strongpoint (S.East of Gaza), Gas was used for the first time.

The 53rd Div attacked on the extreme left, between Sand dunes and the Sea, 156th and 157th Brigades of the 52nd Div attacked the centre at Gaza and Ali Mintar and 161st & 162nd Brigades of the 54th Division attacked the right between Gaza and the "Tank Redoubt". The 161st Brigaed attacked what was to be known as Tank Redoubt and had the 1st & 3rd Btns of the (Australian) Imperial Camel Corps to their right. They dismounted 4000 yards in front of the defences. A single tank called "The Nutty" (always puts a smile on my face!!) advanced with them & drew artillery fire, as you would expect. It wandered along a "wayward path" until it reached the summit of the knoll, where it was set uopn by 4 Field guns & set alight. I think this is "The Nutty" but have never been able to confirm for sure ...

Only around 30 of the Australian Camels & 20 British Infantry reached the 1st line of trenches & bayonet charged the garrison of around 600 turks, who broke & fled to the 2nd line of trenches. Sounds terrific in iteslf, but I suspect the prescence of the tank had something to do with that!! They held on unsupported for around 2 hours but had to withdraw, as they were all wounded & expected a counter attack.

To the right of Tank Redoubt the 3rd Camels advanced between two redoubts & made the furthest advances of the battle. They actually crossed the Gaza Beersheeba road & set up on 2 hills called "Jack" & "Jill"!

The Eastern end of the redoubts (around Atawineh & Suasage Ridge) were attacked by the 3rd & 4th Australian ight Horse Brigades & 5th Mounted Brigade of the Imperial Mounted Division. Thheir Generals orders were a biit fluffy so he chose to try & press home a breakthrough attack, when he wasnt "supposed to". The 3rd Bgde attacked along the Atawineh Ridge & got to within 500 yards of the Turkish trenches. The 4th & 5th faired little better, so they didnt get to within bayonet charging distance & had to call it off.

The 52nd & 53rd Divisions lost over 1800 between them, the 54th almost 3000 casualties, & almost 1000 casualties were sustained between the ANZAC Div, Imperial Div & Camel Brigades.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whether this is the tank you refer to or not, I couldn’t tell, but I do know this tank is considered as the "tank post" in "Tel Sihan" or "Kh. Sihan", which appears on the map as "tank redoubt". The place today is near modern "Shuva" village. This Monday, right after the yearly memorial service at the Beer Sheva cemetery, the local members of the "great war legacy" would be touring the very same place. I bring some photos.

[wroclaw]

Hi Kim

Hope the below is useful ...

6 Tanks were earmarked for the attack and, as the infantry started their attack on the Ali Muntar strongpoint (S.East of Gaza), Gas was used for the first time.

The 53rd Div attacked on the extreme left, between Sand dunes and the Sea, 156th and 157th Brigades of the 52nd Div attacked the centre at Gaza and Ali Mintar and 161st & 162nd Brigades of the 54th Division attacked the right between Gaza and the "Tank Redoubt". The 161st Brigaed attacked what was to be known as Tank Redoubt and had the 1st & 3rd Btns of the (Australian) Imperial Camel Corps to their right. They dismounted 4000 yards in front of the defences. A single tank called "The Nutty" (always puts a smile on my face!!) advanced with them & drew artillery fire, as you would expect. It wandered along a "wayward path" until it reached the summit of the knoll, where it was set uopn by 4 Field guns & set alight. I think this is "The Nutty" but have never been able to confirm for sure ...

Only around 30 of the Australian Camels & 20 British Infantry reached the 1st line of trenches & bayonet charged the garrison of around 600 turks, who broke & fled to the 2nd line of trenches. Sounds terrific in iteslf, but I suspect the prescence of the tank had something to do with that!! They held on unsupported for around 2 hours but had to withdraw, as they were all wounded & expected a counter attack.

To the right of Tank Redoubt the 3rd Camels advanced between two redoubts & made the furthest advances of the battle. They actually crossed the Gaza Beersheeba road & set up on 2 hills called "Jack" & "Jill"!

The Eastern end of the redoubts (around Atawineh & Suasage Ridge) were attacked by the 3rd & 4th Australian ight Horse Brigades & 5th Mounted Brigade of the Imperial Mounted Division. Thheir Generals orders were a biit fluffy so he chose to try & press home a breakthrough attack, when he wasnt "supposed to". The 3rd Bgde attacked along the Atawineh Ridge & got to within 500 yards of the Turkish trenches. The 4th & 5th faired little better, so they didnt get to within bayonet charging distance & had to call it off.

The 52nd & 53rd Divisions lost over 1800 between them, the 54th almost 3000 casualties, & almost 1000 casualties were sustained between the ANZAC Div, Imperial Div & Camel Brigades.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whether this is the tank you refer to or not, I couldn’t tell, but I do know this tank is considered as the "tank post" in "Tel Sihan" or "Kh. Sihan", which appears on the map as "tank redoubt". The place today is near modern "Shuva" village. This Monday, right after the yearly memorial service at the Beer Sheva cemetery, the local members of the "great war legacy accosiation" would be touring the very same place. I bring some photos.

[Ozzie]

Yes please!!!

Particurly interested in the country between Waddi Ghuzzi leading to the Atawineh Redoubt.

If I could beg a favour, please say a prayer for me,for the Light Horse men and all men, who died at Beersheba.

Regards

Kim