Guest C729LEE Posted 20 September , 2005 Share Posted 20 September , 2005 Forum I have brought this man up before, Cpl. Frank Hill of Huttoft, Lincs., the Great Uncle of my girlfriend. Since I last posted on this subject, I have been busy with her family history and while having a day off from the grind that is work, we decided to have a drive and lunch in the area of Huttoft. We stopped off at the church to see if we could find anything relating to the Hill's of Huttoft. The second stone I saw was her Great Grandfathers and GGmothers, a short hunt and there was one for a Great Aunt who died shortly after WW1. (Why, oh why, can't my lot be so easy to dig up, if you'll forgive the predictable pun) On this second stone was a dedication to the lost son, 'Frank, who gave his life for his King and Country, killed April 5th, 1918. Interred in France aged 28'. So, now I have the cutting from the 'Epworth Bells' to prove he did exsist and he did serve with the Linc. R., plus his 1901 census entry, his sisters grave stone with a mention of him. I haven't been able to find an MIC for him so far. Too many Frank Hill's. I was going to try e-mailing the CWGC to see if they could shed any light on this man. Anyone got any other ideas? Lee in Scawby, Lincs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C729LEE Posted 20 September , 2005 Share Posted 20 September , 2005 Forum Just looking through my collection of Lincs gear, and noticed a cigarette case engraved to Lt. F. Brown of the 8th Lincs TMB., and a quick glance at some photo copied Simpson's book entries, tells me that this unit was in quite heavy action on the day Frank, and it turns out Lt. Francis Brown MC., were KIA. Could Frank have been in the TMB or with the other line units the 8th Lincs were working with that day ie. the Somersets and been mixed up with them? I am getting closer to the reason he is not listed anywhere, I can feel it. The fact that the grave stone says 'interred' suggests to me that they were told of his whereabouts. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 20 September , 2005 Share Posted 20 September , 2005 Hi Lee, Soldiers Died shows 48 men died for the 8th Lincs on 5 April 1918 1 man each for 1st, 2nd and 4th battalions. The only Frank Hill on the MICs that I could find that would fit is: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=2 Any idea of when your Frank enlisted? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C729LEE Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 Jim We dont know when he enlisted though from Huttoft we thought he may have been a 1|4th Bn man. He has very little information which makes it all the more of an interesting subject to find out about. How can a man be missed out so completely. He did have connectons to Epworth which is on the border with South Yorkshire, his brother Joseph lived and worked there as a baker at the Albion Bakery. Plus the mention of his death in 1918 was a subject mentioned in the local paper. We will have to see what the people of the CWGC come up with. Thanks for your help, Jim. Lee in Lincs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 Lee This is a real good mystery to solve, got me well baffled. Have looked at the original post as well, and have a few thoughts. Is the newspaper cutting from the time (ie original) rather than a copy from the library. Could they just have copied it from somewhere and the family grapevine have one of the facts wrong? Is there a pic in the paper which has a cap badge? Or could the paper at the time have made a mistake and LINCS should read LANCS? (incidentally a Frank Hill with the Lancs is listed as dying on the date in question but his age does not tally). Could Frank Hill have served with the Aussies or Canadians having emigrated prior to the war? Obviously family were around in both Epworth and Huttoft during and after the war as news was passed to the paper and his name was added to the gravestone, did the same sources put his name forward for either Huttoft or Epworth war Memorials, if so it may be worth a look, as it may have that vital clue. Actually the above jsut gives you more questions and no answers so i will shut up and return to my hangover. Chris PS. Mr Horner gave a write up of a recent local sale and the boom in Militaria prices recently particulary medals citing the price of an interesting 8th Lincs Somme casualty he had only recently brought the hammer down on as a prime example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 This is possibly him.... Pte F.HILL 29364 Lancashire Fusiliers Died 05.04.18 Doullens Communal Cemetery Extension No.1, France Although the GRO Overseas Death Index quotes his name as Frederick - Possibly, Frank was the name the family used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 Alternatively... It is resonably common for relatives to have incorrect information regarding their loved one's death. Often dates etc on memorial inscriptions can be wrong. If this is the case, the following could be a candidate.. L/Cpl F.C.HILL 7525 Lincolnshire Regt Died 25.03.18 Bordeaux Northern Cemetery, France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 Lee and Terry Decided to spend my lunchbreak reading the Epworth Bells rather than having a pint at the Blue Bell, and the paper has two snippets on him: Attached below the picture and the papers date which is imho where the April 5th date has come from. If you had it joted as 5/4/18 it could the day and month of the paper the other way round. Unfortunately no insignia discernable. A seperate article in the April 27th issue ststes, 'Corporal frank Hill, Lincoln Regt, brother of Mr Joseph Hill, baker, is reported killed in action during the recent battle in France. Corporal Hill was 27 years of age and a member of the Lincolnshire Constabulary, having been stationed at Scunthorpe three years.' This at least gives a couple more leads. In my opinion Terry i doubt 7525 F C Hill is the man. He has the first name Frederick and his number suggests a pre war Lincs regular (although he could have been a policeman and a reservist i suppose) Chris (still delving) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 There is no Frank Hill of the Lincs Regt listed in the GRO Overseas Death Index other than L/Cpl F.C.Hill as above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 Hi I have another possible to check out: Pte. Alfred Frank Hill 8th Royal Lancs No: 29029 Death: 13/4/18 I am afraid i do not have Soldiers Died with me at present so can anyone see what it says about this man please? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 It only adds Born Barrow-in-Furness Enlisted Lancaster KiA F&F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 22 September , 2005 Share Posted 22 September , 2005 Lee, Can't find any likely candidates in my 4th database-but I have plenty of gaps... Most of the 8th lads who died on 5 April are on the Arras Memorial. Also realized I posted the wrong link-should have been: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=2 Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C729LEE Posted 22 September , 2005 Share Posted 22 September , 2005 Gentlemen The cutting I have is original though someone has written the newspaper date at the top. I too looked at this possibly getting crossed over - I have casualty medals for both dates. The 8th Bn. sounds good to me for this reason and the fact that all my rellies from Scunthorpe {John William Borrill KIA 01-03/07/16 John Mantle Stow Wounded lost a leg a the same time both Steelworkers} plus other men from the 8th who I have medals for were from the area. Him being a Scunthorpe copper is a good reason for him being mentioned in the Bells. Looking through your kind replies I notice the other men from Lincs/Lancs who he could have been, and I am not convinced he was any of them. I went through MIC/SDGW/CWGC and picked up on them, too. Interesting little family mystery here, you wil no doubt agree. His name was Frank in the 1901 Census and Birth Cert. Chris, the DDM sale, yes it was me - I bought the Brocklesby medals. He lived a couple of doors away from my Great Gran and family two of whom were with the 8th Lincs. The detals are hazey, the Memoriam card says 1st July 1916 though SDGW/CWGC state the 3rd. Not much activity with the unit diary until the 4th. Men KIA were listed from 1st to 4th it would seem not on individual days. I wanted them because of the family link and and are probably going to be the nearest to getting my families gongs together. To cap that my neighbour in Scawby is a Brocklesby and has an interest, his grandfather being a cousin of Charles. I paid a fair wack over the odds but I wanted them, plus they will be with other Lincs medals and will be well looked after. Cheers chaps Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C729LEE Posted 23 September , 2005 Share Posted 23 September , 2005 Jim Thanks for the MIC link. No.21314 Frank Hill would fit the bill, I now think. He is not listed as KIA/DOW/Died though a copy of the MIC may hold something. Does the number shed any light on a Bn/unit? I still await an E/M from thr CWGC. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 23 September , 2005 Share Posted 23 September , 2005 Hi Lee, Unfortunately the new army numbers don't have much of a pattern to them as to the battalion, but we can be fairly certain he joined the regiment in Feb 1916. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C729LEE Posted 23 September , 2005 Share Posted 23 September , 2005 Jim Thats interesting, Feb. 1916? how can that be told from a number? I suppose they were allocated in batches. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 23 September , 2005 Share Posted 23 September , 2005 Lee, Typically the Lincs numbers were issued in order. (Obviously different sets of numbers for each terrier battalion, the Chums, SR and the new army). There are a couple of discreprencies, for example the 20*** and 40*** range were used out of order for transfers between the terriers/new army in 1916. Over time I've built up a database of around 500+ men's details of when they enlisted and their service number. Easier to make an assumption on the lower numbers (ie below 15000) than the higher because I have more info available. Messrs Bramley and Bailey might be able to be a little more accurate than my efforts. The 4th Lincs (once the war began) numbered their men in recoginzable batches running their surnames A thru Z for each batch. So a lot easier to work out when they enlisted. Pattern breaks down in late 1915, but for the early war it works very well. Not an exact science but seems to work well. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFF Posted 23 September , 2005 Share Posted 23 September , 2005 Saw your query-hope the following helps:-prehaps it would be possible for you to send copy of obit/picture to Lincolnshire Police Website Website: "THe UK POlice Service-UK POlice Force" Lists UK Police Websites Including Lincolnshire URL http://www.police.uk/forces.asp ALso I noticed that it was nearly 3 weeks after he was reported a casuality that the local paper reported him as such-was this normal period of time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C729LEE Posted 24 September , 2005 Share Posted 24 September , 2005 PFF A good shout - my next step was to see if Icould find a Police related site, will get onto that one in over the weekend. Jim I am getting the drift of the numbering system now, the men and their medals are beginning to make alittle more sense. I have a couple of 4th Bn. casualties that you may have info on. 1. WILLIAM HENRY OWSTON 2nd Lt. KIA 23\10\18 The other I dont have to hand just now. I'll get back to you in the morning. Cheers LeeinLincs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted 24 September , 2005 Share Posted 24 September , 2005 Lee, Jim. The nearest confirmed enlistment date i have to Frank Hill 21314 is Pte. 21246 Thomas Harpham who enlisted/joined on the 11th February 1916, so Frank hill would presumably not be long after that. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 25 September , 2005 Share Posted 25 September , 2005 Lee, Being the pleb that I am, I've mainly concentrated upon the other ranks rather than officers! Do have a little on Owston: I have him as died of wounds, 23 Oct 1917 (Officers Died), as opposed to 1918 Can't find him on the LG, but that's not telling too much... He's not mentioned in Simpson, and as you're probably aware the war diary isn't the most detailed so wouldn't hold up too much hope there either! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C729LEE Posted 25 September , 2005 Share Posted 25 September , 2005 Chris & Jim We now have something to work on, and a reference point in time with the army number of 'a' Frank Hill, this MIC may give me a bit more detail. Owston is not well documented at all, not even getting a look in in Simpson's. I bought this plaque for a mate whose family had lost it years ago, at right old price, too. Now he doesn't want it, after I offered to get it for him. I know how Derek R., the true gent that he is feels now. However, it is 4th Lincs and has a place in my collection. Was No.202942 Pte. Henry Joseph Wood KIA 04/10/17 serving with the 8th Bn. one of the 4th Bn. boys on your database. Born 1898 & enl. Sleaford. I have his pair and plaque in my collection. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 25 September , 2005 Share Posted 25 September , 2005 Lee, Sorry to hear you got screwed over with the plaque, still at least it's in a good home. Re: Wood. Would have enlisted/conscripted fourth quarter 1916, have had a terrier four digit number somewhere around 7000-most likely between 7020-7030. Obviously to the front post March 1917. It's possible that he didn't serve abroad with the 1/4th or 2/4th and went straight to the 8th. But you'd have to get the medal roll to confirm. I do notice that there's 2 MICs on the online NA website for him, have you looked at them? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C729LEE Posted 25 September , 2005 Share Posted 25 September , 2005 Jim I only picked these up a week ago so haven't got round to digging around. So many others been dug around for at present. Mostly 8th Bn. Who would you advise to get the Medal Rolls looked up with or are they available on line yet? I've quite a few MR's needed. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 26 September , 2005 Share Posted 26 September , 2005 Lee, Contact me off forum and I'll forward you the email address of the lad I use for NA research-don't believe the rolls are online. I've been burnt in the past with other "researchers" and find this lad to be very good but in terms of price and service. Regarding the 8th Lincs, I don't find too many lads from the south of the county as early members (as compared to the 6th or 7th)...is this something you've come across? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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