Ploughing On The Somme

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

Anyway , i am sure everybody welcomes you to the forum Pajoro.

Regards,

Roland.

[Guest PAJORO]

I must remember to keep that next lead shrapnel ball (only some 100 billion fired in 14-18) I find and request the authorities put aside everything else to forensically analyse it lest it leads to a body.

What???

What!  All of them?!?  Just on the Western Front in the Great War or all wars?  Everywhere?  From all time?

To borrow from you:

Hahaha your [sic] a scream!  Hohoho stop it please!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What an extreme point and they call me mindnumbingly boring. If you find for example a cap badge please understand it was issued to some person. It may have been dropped etc during that battle. That soldier may have gone on to survive, but he may be lying near to the place where the badge was found, because he was killed where it was found (or lies nearby)...simple logic to a Troll like myself, but not to a battlefield junkie like yourself. Anyways let's face it really, you didn't feel my post was boring as you read it all.

[Guest PAJORO]

Well, that was a mission! Hey Pajoro, each to their own mate! You are quite right, you are entitled to your own views, but please allow us to have a different point of view! Me, I'm ex military and have served in conflict. If I had of died in battle, maybe to lay forever, with my comrades in arms on the battlefield, so be it and perhaps the battlefield for a fallen soldier, is a more special place than a cemetry! A different angle perhaps. Food for thought!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And accepted gratefully. Very clear thinking. However, would you want someone in years to come to grab what they can from your remains and keep it. How about a relic your wife, relative may have given you? Some battlefield peckers may return that item to a surviving relative, but some don't. The Commonwealth Graves Commission provide some great rest accommodation for the fallen. Most folks visit these sites as they had a relative who fought/fell etc. The comfort for them is to visit the grave of that fallen person.

[Guest PAJORO]

You missed nothing more than a complete waste of space!

Never heard so much drivel in one post on the whole site.

Dave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm I bet your the Plough Report Guy

Hopefully the new recent report will get to you soon enough to cheer you up.

[Max Poilu]

I really believe you, as others have suggested, are a 'troll' but I must make one reply. I was trying to illustrate the pointless nature of your suggestion. You really need to spend some time exploring past discussion on this subject. There has been a great deal. Instead, you jump in head first insulting many members with your very first post.

For one thing a cap badge is (relatively speaking) an incredibly rare find. Are you suggesting each time one is found the authorities be called in to excavate the immediate land!?! Notwithstanding the utter madness of this suggestion the badge may have been carried on a clod of earth from a tractor 5 miles away. As can be seen by studying the archive on this subject a cap badge or similar means virtually nothing in the search for bodies.

And yes, I did read your post a number of times in its entirity, you clearly have not read the replies very carefully.

'Battlefield junkie' eh?

That's a new one.

[Max]

The most puzzling thing for me though is when the detritus of war (in the eyes of the 'relic antis') becomes an issue.  Should everything discarded by the Great War be left there now just because those events took place 90 odd years ago?  Is this not a modern idea born from the current trend for 'television archeology'?  Should it not have been touched in the 60's - was it an archaeological treasure then?  What about in the 30's when it had lay there for only a decade or two?  What about the current war in Iraq?  Should all the crap be left in the desert for future generations to analyse?  What about the first Gulf war or the Falklands?  Has enough time passed for it to be considered no longer dangerous or useless rubbish but a clue to what took place?  Immediately after any war the same pattern will follow just as in 14-18; most of the unexploded items will be removed, anything useful will be claimed by the returning population and dare I say much will be salvaged for sale as future 'souvenirs'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come on Giles, its not like you to be deliberately provocative

----edited by me-----

You know full well where us "antis" are coming from and its not jumping on people who pick up the occasional shrapnel ball or a shell shard. The picking up and keeping of obviously personal items, whether they would be an aid to corpse identification or not, is graverobbing whether you like it or not. Why can't the vultures wait until the offspring of the killed are gone themselves before stripping the dead?

Andy

[Max Poilu]

Andy,

My point was put as a serious question, nothing more - I really am interested in what is a puzzling factor. If one reads my many posts (through 2 1/2 years)on this subject you will see how carefully I draw the line between surface scrap and anything else.

Edited by Giles

Andy,

Thank you for your graciousness - we'll be drinking together next...

[Max]

Giles

In retrospect you are right about the passage(choke, cough) and I have altered the post.

Andy

[Guest PAJORO]

For one thing a cap badge is (relatively speaking) an incredibly rare find.  Are you suggesting each time one is found the authorities be called in to excavate the immediate land!?!  Notwithstanding the utter madness of this suggestion the badge may have been carried on a clod of earth from a tractor 5 miles away.  As can be seen by studying the archive on this subject a cap badge or similar means virtually nothing in the search for bodies.

And yes, I did read your post a number of times in its entirity, you clearly have not read the replies very carefully.

'Battlefield junkie' eh?

That's a new one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You read it a few times surprises me. Of course your anology of the cap badge scenario is correct in those particular circumstances. Hoh hum.

Proposal, let's have a strategic, methodical and forensically correct archaeological excavation of any fallow field. A proper forensic discovery leads to a more POSITIVE likely result of any found remains etc etc being identified. Whilst undertaken prohibit the battlefield peckers societies/collectors etc etc from entering field excavation site as they will only hamper, impede DISCOVERY.

I'm not interested in all your scenarios. Sheesh and I'm supposed to be the extreme troll guy. There's millions of scenarios for you to bombard my intial suggestion with. I could have gone on typing and covering all possibles, but I thought I would leave that to the real extreme bombastic types to volunteer, take a bow Giles your one of them. Go back and read my intial post again. Yes I totally disagree with battlefield peckers, but hey hoh I'm humble enough to accept that others do not share my thinking. there are still surviving soldiers from that war, which makes the point even more valid. let's go back one field at a time with VOLUNTEERS of sufficient professional experience etc etc and find these boys and lay them to rest. OF COURSE we won't find them all, but is that a qualified reason for not attempting.

Apologies for the battlefield junkie bit, but it was on a par with the Troll suggestion. There's no such thing as a strong opinion. It's just an opinion. Folks make that suggestion that it is a strong opinion because it hits them were they don't like. They then get all uppity, insulted etc and feel they have to call folks Trolls etc.

Anyways isn't that another Plough Report in the offing. Best I go for a trip, walk on the battlefields and who knows maybe I'll find something.

[uncle bill]

can someone enlighten me as to what a troll is ?

[Rob Gray]

Uncle Bill,

A Troll is as follows:

"An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war".

The best policy is not to rise to their bait, hence the term "Don't feed the Trolls".

[uncle bill]

thanks for that. Our troll does seem to be fairly switched on though. A bit like a cowboy who's just walked into our cosy saloon and called us all poofters, great stuff.

[Max]

thanks for that. Our troll does seem to be fairly switched on though. A bit like a cowboy who's just walked into our cosy saloon and called us all poofters, great stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that the term Troll is misused on this occasion. Pajaro has made some strong statements but he has backed up his thinking with a reasoned argument (whether you agree with it or not). A real troll would post along the lines of "all battlefield vultures should be taken away and surgically castrated". I do love the turn of phrase he uses, "battlefield pecker" is a classic as it obviously has a double-entendre quality about it, especially to our American chums.

Andy

[DaveBrigg]

May I humbly submit a few verses composed on National Poetry Day and witheld until the blue touchpaper on this thread re-ignited

The Collector

I took the boat to Calais

Took breakfast on the swell

The food was so delicious that

I took the plates as well

I took the turn to Albert

The journey it took hours

I took a look at someone's lawn

And then I took their flowers

And then I took a wrong turn

Completely lost the route

I saw a helpful signpost

So I popped it in my boot

My time I took in the trenches

I took what I could find

A badge, a boot, a trenching tool

The owners wouldn't mind

I took a clip of ammo

Some buttons for the shelf

And when I found a wiring post

I had to help myself

I took a rusty rifle

Something I couldn't miss

And when someone objected

i had to take the mick

I took some hero's hip flask

I didn't mind the smell

He'd given us our liberty

And I'm taking that as well

[Guest PAJORO]

Yep, Andy you might have something there - I could even grow to like 'Battlefield junkie'!

Giles 'battlefield junkie' Poilu.

Marvellous! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've already apologised for that one. I made first step, but who cares about that. I didn't like the term troll and what I considered to be bombastic replies. I now have just discovered what the tag 'troll' means in it's proper forum meaning of the term, but is not applicable to me.

[Guest PAJORO]

I think that the term Troll is misused on this occasion. Pajaro has made some strong statements but he has backed up his thinking with a reasoned argument (whether you agree with it or not). A real troll would post along the lines of "all battlefield vultures should be taken away and surgically castrated". I do love the turn of phrase he uses, "battlefield pecker" is a classic as it obviously has a double-entendre quality about it, especially to our American chums.

Andy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Andy please accept my sincere appreciation in this post.

I just got back from 'The Somme' and recognised problems caused with walkers picking/retaining memorabilia from battlefields. I was chuffed to bits when my tour guide told me of a Christmas Day when out walking with his family he ventured on a single button whereupon he investigated/digged further and would you believe the scattered remains of that boy were found. Of course he knew what he was doing when he found that button. He knows the regulations/law etc. He knew the protocols to inform local Police etc etc. I won't labour the point.

That fallen man (Canadian) was interred with some of his fallen buddies.

I noted on that tour that the temporary forensic excavation of certain fields left fallow, could be undertaken to locate the fallen. Please note that methods are available to us today to undertake such ventures. I also recognise that the control and preservation of these battlefields is extremely limited. I appreciate the problems with the financing of such a venture, for example the costs on proper burials upon discovery etc, but if I ever won that lottery.

I would hasten to suggest that unless you are qualified in forensic or archaeological examination techniques, then leave these things alone. Any disturbance lessens the already difficult possibilities of proper identification of the remains.

I appreciate others feel different. However a certain opinion will always resurface irrespective of past posts.

Thanks again.

Ps Troll indeed sheesh. I now know the proper meaning of the term when replying to posts. Take care matey.

[Guest PAJORO]

thanks for that. Our troll does seem to be fairly switched on though. A bit like a cowboy who's just walked into our cosy saloon and called us all poofters, great stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Honestly...Bill . Our troll hmmmm.

[uncle bill]

just joking. anyway I agree with a lot of what you are saying, what the diggers have done near Boesinghe backs up a lot of your argument. There is still a difference between picking up a shrapnel ball and digging around for the stuff. There was a young french chap selling dug up relics on uk ebay and I strongly lobbied and harrassed him to give it up. I got a fair amount of abuse for my troubles but who knows I might bump into him at Albert next week !!

[uncle bill]

has anyone seen this man ?

[Guest PAJORO]

has anyone seen this man ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, it's the author of that book I was telling you all about 'How to calculate unknown averages and use figures as stratistics to qualify your own personal arguments'.

[uncle bill]

[ianw]

No, the troll tag seems to be inappropriate here. I suppose it's inevitable that these great questions will periodically resurface as people discover them and perhaps simultaneously find this Forum. Us old timers will just have to live with this.

Being a 1st or 2nd battalion Forum member doesn't give any special proprietorial rights.

Right now there may be some new student of the Great war in a righteous rage about the SAD question and just starting a new thread - additionally he's a member of the UDLA and thinks Haig was the Antichrist and doesn't like revisionists one bit ! More threads will inevitably follow. But is he a troll ?

I find myself in the soft centre of the "battlefield plunder" debate. IMHO taking a personal item and potentially denying a man a known grave is deeply repellent. Taking a small nondescript item from the battlefields of the Western Front to treasure and preserve could be considered remembrance in action. I appreciate there is a spectrum of behaviour here. Down to one's individual conscience, I think.

[mcnab]

Did anyone else ever read about the guy who took an airspeed indicator from a bomber that crashed in The Lakes during WW2 and had his house haunted by the aircrew? He returned it to the crash site quick smart!

Maybe the soloution on these field walks would be to take a GPS and log the location of finds and for the authorites to allow you to provide returns to fill in, like when you go fishing, you pop a docket in a box on the way home stating what you caught and what you returned.

The smallest find is part of a big jigsaw, and in the future, even a shrapnal ball might be of significance.

[Guest PAJORO]

Thanks McNab,

Wisdom is appreciated. The finding/excavation and archaeology policies and procedures have as yet to be properly and accurately defined for battlefield enthusiasts. Once done everybody would know where they stood. Any person having found an item i.e. cap badge and took it away after having formally first correctly recording the accurate location/description of item etc etc. Should any remains be found later, which were correctly FORENSICALLY excavated, reference could then also be made with the recorded log of the finder of the aforementioned cap badge. It may/may not coincide, but is extremely useful knowledge to assist in identifying the fallen, even at the very least allowing the remains headstone to carry the emblem/crest of his regiment.

Who knows what (innocent) damage has been done in the past/knowledge has been lost, but this could be halted.

[Soren]

Come on Giles, its not like you to be deliberately provocative

Hmmmmm or you perhaps.