Ploughing On The Somme

[davedixon]

I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here, which was not my intention.

I have just returned from my Walking The Somme tour, which I really enjoyed as usual.

I walked on the edge of some fields and returned with some German pottery and some WW1 glass. Not a lot, but how anyone can say picking such things up is grave robbing and the like baffles me.

Just a small momento of my tour which I shall treasure.

No ammunition was taken, which I agree is quite rightly forbidden.

I did see 5 Mills Bombs on the surface though.

Dave.

[Max Poilu]

but how anyone can say picking such things up is grave robbing and the like baffles me

You said it Dave. Glad you had a good time. To compare your actions and those of others (myself included and countless others on this forum) in this respect as comparable to grave robbing is frankly preposterous. As I keep saying throughout this topic though just check the search for 'relics' above. The opinions of those on both sides of this argument have been expressed ad-infinitum.

[Guest Keith Pearson]

Looking on the surface of any battlefield is not graverobbing nor indeed disrespectful in any way. There have been numerous instances where the remains of soldiers have been discovered by casual folks walking on the fields of the Western Front and elsewhere. This has been going on for many years ( I should know I have been visiting for over 60 years now ) and I therefore presume that all of the artefacts in places such as Sanctuary Wood, Cafe Le Tommy and the artefacts SOLD at Delville Wood and many other places are grave booty? This is over sentimentalised nonsense. Nobody is suggesting that people look for bones etc, but very often personal items have been recovered and sent to the family. Last year a pocket watch was found on the Somme and returned to a Yorkshire family ; they were highly delighted and moved as they had had no previous knowledge of their great uncle. This in turn inspired a member of that family to research his history etc.

Lets face reality here. Their are many hundreds of all nationalities that search on the battlefields. French law may well prohibit this act but it is not enforced...very rarely at all. The local Somme farmers are not bothered on the whole, I cannot remember a sole farmer shouting or ordering folks off their land. The battlefields are now productive land used for people to rightly make a living. They cover many thousands of square miles over many nations. If we are to take the don't touch, don't look attitude, then the farmers who unbeknowingly smash the bones of soldiers are trampling on the largest graveyard in the world and should be halted?

Lets be sensible. The vast majority of battlefield walkers are middle aged Brits looking for a small relic of the war. The other category are the foreign or home nationals who look for booty to sell. We cannot stop that at all and never will ; it has been going on since my first visit to the battlefields in 1938. Just because we are all treating the Somme in particular as some hallowed ground to be utterly worshipped at all costs, doesn't mean that looking in the fields is wrong.

If you feel that strongly about the removal of relics, then do not support places and organisations that display such items. It may also interest you to know that the Albert Police offices were, until renovation, covered with relics collected by off duty local police!!

[Max]

Looking on the surface of any battlefield is not graverobbing nor indeed disrespectful in any way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, the good Professor from Cambridge, or is it Manchester?

I would hope that the statement you make above is a personal view and not an assertion of fact.

Andy

[DaveBrigg]

I'm genuinely sorry if earlier comments have upset people as much as they seem to have done. I can at least acknowledge my inexperience on this site, and respect for the opinions of others with whom I may not agree. However, if one is to support the digging of battlefield sites to collect souvenirs, including those which can be used to identify unidentified remains, then surely the best place to take your spade is Tyne Cot.

The graves which still lie in the fields may not have a nice headstone, but personally speaking I would not want to make this distinction when deciding whether or not to use them as a source of souvenirs.

I can understand that field-walking is considered to be different, but I wonder how much thought is given to the owner of those personal items, who may be resting just feet away. At least those who collect dud shells are taking items which have no personal significance and were probably unwanted by those who received them.

What happens to these 'souvenirs' in the long term? Put on a shelf to gather dust? Tidied away by an impatient spouse? Stuck in a box as they accumulate? Left to children, with little idea of their background?

I have hundreds of souvenirs from the battlefields, courtesy of Kodak, and can recommend this as a better way of remembering where you went.

The reality may be that some visit the battlefields with the aim of collecting souvenirs. It took place at Waterloo, while the bodies were still warm, but just because it happens, it doesn't make it right.

[Max Poilu]

Andy,

I think at the end of the day you have to accept that we have different opinions on this one! No-one's opinion is more fact or valid than anyone elses. This old thorny subject has been gone over so many times and like so much else in life people see it from different viewpoints - this was probably the most detailed argument:

Metal Detectors on France

Personally speaking, in this latest discussion Keith's post has said it all. You will take an oposite view but for myself, walking the fields and finding relics on the surface does not make me a grave robber. My conscience is crystal clear on that one.

[dycer]

As another who may have an Uncle lying unburied in the Somme region may I add my thoughts.

The debate started about the fertility of the Land.I am quite happy if my Uncle's body has contributed and continues to contribute to this fertility.To be honest I cannot think of a better epitaph although some may become squeamish when they think of the fertilizer used to grow the maize,etc.

There is, however, still the rather forlorn hope that he may be found.I would hate to think that someone picking up a personal item which appears very innocuous could prevent a casualty or his Regiment being identified.

I am less concerned with non-personal items e.g shell cases,etc because during the War there was a thriving trade using these items(Trench Art) but as has been said already and as Chris warns, don't pick them up as something may go off with a nasty bang.

George

[DaveBrigg]

Lets be sensible. The vast majority of battlefield walkers are middle aged Brits looking for a small relic of the war. The other category are the foreign or home nationals who look for booty to sell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A different generation?

And who said that it's the youth of today who need to learn respect?

[Guest Catcaper]

"Lets be sensible. The vast majority of battlefield walkers are middle aged Brits looking for a small relic of the war. The other category are the foreign or home nationals who look for booty to sell. "

So if we aren't Brits, we are "foreign" who look for booty to sell?

Aren't the Brits "foreign"???

There is another category.

It is those of us who aren't "Brits" and aren't looking to pick up relics to sell.

Just came back. Didn't touch anything.

Agree fully that pictures are the best. Mine are brilliant and I intend to show them to everyone I can with the hope that they will be inspired to visit themselves and gain a better understanding of how horrible war is.

And, Mr. Brigg, great pictures.

I truly hope more and more of the "different generation" are able to take the opportunity to appreciate the loss many have suffered and learn from it.

A foreigner from Canada.

[Guest PAJORO]

Looking on the surface of any battlefield is not graverobbing nor indeed disrespectful in any way. There have been numerous instances where the remains of soldiers have been discovered by casual folks walking on the fields of the Western Front and elsewhere. This has been going on for many years ( I should know I have been visiting for over 60 years now ) and I therefore presume that all of the artefacts in places such as Sanctuary Wood, Cafe Le Tommy and the artefacts SOLD at Delville Wood and many other places are grave booty? This is over sentimentalised nonsense. Nobody is suggesting that people look for bones etc, but very often personal items have been recovered and sent to the family. Last year a pocket watch was found on the Somme and returned to a Yorkshire family ; they were highly delighted and moved as they had had no previous knowledge of their great uncle. This in turn inspired a member of that family to research his history etc.

Lets face reality here. Their are many hundreds of all nationalities that search on the battlefields. French law may well prohibit this act but it is not enforced...very rarely at all. The local Somme farmers are not bothered on the whole, I cannot remember a sole farmer shouting or ordering folks off their land. The battlefields are now productive land used for people to rightly make a living. They cover many thousands of square miles over many nations. If we are to take the don't touch, don't look attitude, then the farmers who unbeknowingly smash the bones of soldiers are trampling on the largest graveyard in the world and should be halted?

Lets be sensible. The vast majority of battlefield walkers are middle aged Brits looking for a small relic of the war. The other category are the foreign or home nationals who look for booty to sell. We cannot stop that at all and never will ; it has been going on since my first visit to the battlefields in 1938. Just because we are all treating the Somme in particular as some hallowed ground to be utterly worshipped at all costs, doesn't mean that looking in the fields is wrong.

If you feel that strongly about the removal of relics, then do not support places and organisations that display such items. It may also interest you to know that the Albert Police offices were, until renovation, covered with relics collected by off duty local police!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just happened on this forum after having just returned from a tour of The Somme battlefields.

I noted one thread resulting from a guy called 'Keith' read: Looking on the surface of any battlefield is not graverobbing nor indeed disrespectful in any way.

I guess that's precisely your problem keith you can only look on the surface. Irrespective of your personal view alot of folks would consider that in this particular subject you are indeed being disrespectful in many ways. I certainly do so, let's get that straight from the start so you know where I'm batting from.

Your correct to state so directly that, looking on the surface of any battlefield is not graverobbing, but taking material from these battlefields is indeed a crime, irrespective of how well the local Police enforce their laws to prohibit this activity. It is also graverobbing in its basic commonlaw meaning. In reading your message I was concerned to read that you have been visiting these fields for over 60 years. I considered the points you made and can only conclude matey (wink) that, you've had a good scrummage over those past years, finding the odd badge etc and kept it for keepsakes. Persish the thought that you might be a collector and/or sell them on. I made the aforementioned conclusion after many years witnessing people like yourself espousing views as you/they have done, contrary to the usual basic moral thinking merely, as a result of having undertaken some act etc, and in holding your/their opinion, use it as a form of some mental reinforcement for a personal moral dilema and/or denial.

It is true that there have been numerous reported incidents where the remains of soldiers have been discovered by casual folks walking on the fields of the Western Front and elsewhere.

I would hazard a guess that there have been incidents where the the remains of soldiers have been discovered, but not reported. Speak to some of those tour guides for those areas and if they feel confidant enough, they just might tell you some stories. Persish another thought that you might be one of those tour guides.

Practicality dictates in these times that, alot of those folks buried on those battlefields may/will never be found. I first stated may as there's always hope. On a recent visit to The Somme I pondered on these issues. I believe that after sacrificing your life for your country/any country that you should be provided with a proper FUNERAL. I also believe that a search of any battlefield should be undertaken and continue to be undertaken to look for you and ensure your funeral is provided. I noticed that the farmers practiced a rotating system where they leave one field fallow for a year. It would be nice to think that the finance and consideration was available whereby those/that field could be FORENSICALLY excavated and searched for the remains of soldiers fallen in that/those battlefield(s). A means whereby through the use of a thorough method of searching ie, first finding a button, badge etc the trail would lead to the remains and possible identification of that/those fallen in the battlefield. Please note the term FORENSICALLY. It is correct to conclude that not all the fallen would be identified or even found, but an effort should be undertaken. However, with folks like yourself scrummaging over the battlefields the efforts would be inhibited.

I could just imagine you and folks like you ranting as you have done here, that my view is over sentimentalised nonsense. Sheesh folks like you are enough to put me off the pint beer I'm drinking. Perish another thought that I could be in a pub sipping a beer and hearing you or a person just like you, 'talking the talk yadda yadd yadda I was walking AGAIN on The Somme and I found blah blah and have kept blah blah' and hearing you espouse your sentimentalised nonsense routine about other folks who feel this is wrong. Are you really a Lance-Corporal? Are you really a professor?

Irrespective that some compare others actions and consider the search and seizure of battlefield artefacts as comparable to grave robbing and frankly preposterous, and that these opinions of those on both sides of this argument have been expressed ad-infinitum. Opinions will always be voiced. They'll come back to be voiced again in the future.Just as I have visited this site tonight and encountered your forum.

I have just visited this site after having undertaken a visit to some of the Battlefields mentioned in this forum and disappointed that SOME Brits would be undertaking or considering the undertaking of this type of venture. At the time of my tour I was disappointed to learn that some of the local French were engaging in the same. Sad state of affairs. To read the message about ploughing reports wow, how diagnostic. Keep it up boys.

You consider that all of the artefacts in places such as Sanctuary Wood, Cafe Le Tommy and the artefacts SOLD at Delville Wood and many other places are grave booty? Hahaha your a scream. Nobody is suggesting that people look for bones etc. Hohoho stop it please. Often personal items have been recovered and sent to the family. Oh please albeit it maybe true was the place where those itmes found properly and correctly FORENSICALLY excavated and searched. I could just see you boys now 'Oh look there's watch I'll pick it up and take it away with me. I won;'t consider that the remains of the loser may be be near where I found this watch. never mind I'll forget that point and argue that to consider this point is OVER SENTIMENTALISED RUBBISH'. Yeah that's right reinforce your cryptic dogma with the, even the local Police do it argument. 'Yep, I'll just pick it up and take it with me, even the local Police do it too'.

When you made the 'Lets face reality here' statement. Here we go another example of his cryptic wisdom = Their are many hundreds of all nationalities that search on the battlefields. French law may well prohibit this act but it is not enforced...very rarely at all. Such logic the Police don't/can't really enforce their laws, it's got to be okay.

It would be great to have them patrol the battlefields, but again the practicality dictates in these times that this again is too costly.

The local Somme farmers are not bothered on the whole, I cannot remember a sole farmer shouting or ordering folks off their land. Oh sheesh I laughed at that one so much I nearly urinated myself?

I would not ever suggest that, the local hardworking farmers who unbeknowingly smash the bones of those fallen and are trampling (ploughing/walking) on the largest graveyard in the world and should be halted as they have a role to fufil. However lance Corporal Prof see my last suggestion albeit a costly endeavour. It is possible, but there isn't the finance, resources or intentions made available.

You considered it sensible. Your message strongly suggests you consider it true to consider that THE VAST MAJORITY of battlefield walkers are middle aged Brits looking for a small relic of the war. How did you calculate your 'vast majority' estimate? YOUR cryptic logic fails me again.

Your quite legally minded to make the following statement: The other category are the foreign or home nationals who look for booty to sell. We cannot stop that at all and never will ; it has been going on since my first visit to the battlefields in 1938. Just because we are all treating the Somme in particular as some hallowed ground to be utterly worshipped at all costs, doesn't mean that looking in the fields is wrong.

Their dead PEOPLE Keith. Their remains and/or artefacts are not to be disturbed unless done with a view to finding their fallen remains. It is possible by using more methodical FORENSIC excavation and searching methods to locate and return these fallen PEOPLE.

The methods and ability to do so are known to us already.

Keith I'm disappointed.

I have never served in any armed force. Nor would I enjoy any participation in any armed conflict. I merely visited The Somme battlefields as my great grandfather fought there. I am however a Police Officer.

Passing thought: Wouldn't it be great if suddenly finance were donated whereby a large archelogical and forensic project funded specifically to locate and formally bury etc the lost/fallen in that/any war.

[Guest PAJORO]

I just happened on this forum after having just returned from a tour of The Somme battlefields.

I noted one thread resulting from a guy called 'Keith' read: Looking on the surface of any battlefield is not graverobbing nor indeed disrespectful in any way.

I guess that's precisely your problem keith you can only look on the surface. Irrespective of your personal view alot of folks would consider that in this particular subject you are indeed being disrespectful in many ways. I certainly do so, let's get that straight from the start so you know where I'm batting from.

Your correct to state so directly that, looking on the surface of any battlefield is not graverobbing, but taking material from these battlefields is indeed a crime, irrespective of how well the local Police enforce their laws to prohibit this activity. It is also graverobbing in its basic commonlaw meaning. In reading your message I was concerned to read that you have been visiting these fields for over 60 years. I considered the points you made and can only conclude matey (wink) that, you've had a good scrummage over those past years, finding the odd badge etc and kept it for keepsakes. Persish the thought that you might be a collector and/or sell them on. I made the aforementioned conclusion after many years witnessing people like yourself espousing views as you/they have done, contrary to the usual basic moral thinking merely, as a result of having undertaken some act etc, and in holding your/their opinion, use it as a form of some mental reinforcement for a personal moral dilema and/or denial.

It is true that there have been numerous reported incidents where the remains of soldiers have been discovered by casual folks walking on the fields of the Western Front and elsewhere.

I would hazard a guess that there have been incidents where the the remains of soldiers have been discovered, but not reported. Speak to some of those tour guides for those areas and if they feel confidant enough, they just might tell you some stories. Persish another thought that you might be one of those tour guides.

Practicality dictates in these times that, alot of those folks buried on those battlefields may/will never be found. I first stated may as there's always hope. On a recent visit to The Somme I pondered on these issues. I believe that after sacrificing your life for your country/any country that you should be provided with a proper FUNERAL. I also believe that a search of any battlefield should be undertaken and continue to be undertaken to look for you and ensure your funeral is provided. I noticed that the farmers practiced a rotating system where they leave one field fallow for a year. It would be nice to think that the finance and consideration was available whereby those/that field could be FORENSICALLY excavated and searched for the remains of soldiers fallen in that/those battlefield(s). A means whereby through the use of a thorough method of searching ie, first finding a button, badge etc the trail would lead to the remains and possible identification of that/those fallen in the battlefield. Please note the term FORENSICALLY. It is correct to conclude that not all the fallen would be identified or even found, but an effort should be undertaken. However, with folks like yourself scrummaging over the battlefields the efforts would be inhibited.

I could just imagine you and folks like you ranting as you have done here, that my view is over sentimentalised nonsense. Sheesh folks like you are enough to put me off the pint beer I'm drinking. Perish another thought that I could be in a pub sipping a beer and hearing you or a person just like you, 'talking the talk yadda yadd yadda I was walking AGAIN on The Somme and I found blah blah and have kept blah blah' and hearing you espouse your sentimentalised nonsense routine about other folks who feel this is wrong. Are you really a Lance-Corporal? Are you really a professor?

Irrespective that some compare others actions and consider the search and seizure of battlefield artefacts as comparable to grave robbing and frankly preposterous, and that these opinions of those on both sides of this argument have been expressed ad-infinitum. Opinions will always be voiced. They'll come back to be voiced again in the future.Just as I have visited this site tonight and encountered your forum.

I have just visited this site after having undertaken a visit to some of the Battlefields mentioned in this forum and disappointed that SOME Brits would be undertaking or considering the undertaking of this type of venture. At the time of my tour I was disappointed to learn that some of the local French were engaging in the same. Sad state of affairs. To read the message about ploughing reports wow, how diagnostic. Keep it up boys.

You consider that all of the artefacts in places such as Sanctuary Wood, Cafe Le Tommy and the artefacts SOLD at Delville Wood and many other places are grave booty? Hahaha your a scream. Nobody is suggesting that people look for bones etc. Hohoho stop it please. Often personal items have been recovered and sent to the family. Oh please albeit it maybe true was the place where those itmes found properly and correctly FORENSICALLY excavated and searched. I could just see you boys now 'Oh look there's watch I'll pick it up and take it away with me. I won;'t consider that the remains of the loser may be be near where I found this watch. never mind I'll forget that point and argue that to consider this point is OVER SENTIMENTALISED RUBBISH'. Yeah that's right reinforce your cryptic dogma with the, even the local Police do it argument. 'Yep, I'll just pick it up and take it with me, even the local Police do it too'.

When you made the 'Lets face reality here' statement. Here we go another example of his cryptic wisdom = Their are many hundreds of all nationalities that search on the battlefields. French law may well prohibit this act but it is not enforced...very rarely at all. Such logic the Police don't/can't really enforce their laws, it's got to be okay.

It would be great to have them patrol the battlefields, but again the practicality dictates in these times that this again is too costly.

The local Somme farmers are not bothered on the whole, I cannot remember a sole farmer shouting or ordering folks off their land. Oh sheesh I laughed at that one so much I nearly urinated myself?

I would not ever suggest that, the local hardworking farmers who unbeknowingly smash the bones of those fallen and are trampling (ploughing/walking) on the largest graveyard in the world and should be halted as they have a role to fufil. However lance Corporal Prof see my last suggestion albeit a costly endeavour. It is possible, but there isn't the finance, resources or intentions made available.

You considered it sensible. Your message strongly suggests you consider it true to consider that THE VAST MAJORITY of battlefield walkers are middle aged Brits looking for a small relic of the war. How did you calculate your 'vast majority' estimate? YOUR cryptic logic fails me again.

Your quite legally minded to make the following statement: The other category are the foreign or home nationals who look for booty to sell. We cannot stop that at all and never will ; it has been going on since my first visit to the battlefields in 1938. Just because we are all treating the Somme in particular as some hallowed ground to be utterly worshipped at all costs, doesn't mean that looking in the fields is wrong.

Their dead PEOPLE Keith. Their remains and/or artefacts are not to be disturbed unless done with a view to finding their fallen remains. It is possible by using more methodical FORENSIC excavation and searching methods to locate and return these fallen PEOPLE.

The methods and ability to do so are known to us already.

Keith I'm disappointed.

I have never served in any armed force. Nor would I enjoy any participation in any armed conflict. I merely visited The Somme battlefields as my great grandfather fought there. I am however a Police Officer.

Passing thought: Wouldn't it be great if suddenly finance were donated whereby a large archelogical and forensic project funded specifically to locate and formally bury etc the lost/fallen in that/any war.

[Rob Gray]

Phew..!!!

I wonder how long that one took to type..?

Is this guy what is known as a "Troll"..??

And in case you didn't get the message first time, its been posted twice...!!

I think that the views of most battlefield walkers / visitors are not quite as extreme as Pajoro, however to seriously suggest that exhumation of all missing bodies is desirable or in any way feasible, is quite incredible.

What do others think?

Rob.

[truthergw]

Phew..!!!

I wonder how long that one took to type..?

Is this guy what is known as a "Troll"..??

And in case you didn't get the message first time, its been posted twice...!!

I think that the views of most battlefield walkers / visitors are not quite as extreme as Pajoro, however to seriously suggest that exhumation of all missing bodies is desirable or in any way feasible, is quite incredible.

What do others think?

Rob.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bad habit of mine. Quick glance, Troll alert, didn't bother finishing it. Let's hope I didn't miss anything important.

[chrislock]

Well, that was a mission! Hey Pajoro, each to their own mate! You are quite right, you are entitled to your own views, but please allow us to have a different point of view! Me, I'm ex military and have served in conflict. If I had of died in battle, maybe to lay forever, with my comrades in arms on the battlefield, so be it and perhaps the battlefield for a fallen soldier, is a more special place than a cemetry! A different angle perhaps. Food for thought!

[Max Poilu]

Wow! - as if that post was not mind-numbing enough he posted it twice. Welcome to the forum PAJORO. Try reading some of the hundreds of previous posts in various links above or in the archive and you might discover that a huge effort was indeed made to recover as many bodies as [sensibly] possible. In addition the first people to recover relics were the sodiers themselves followed by returning local people re-building their lives.

I must remember to keep that next lead shrapnel ball (only some 100 billion fired in 14-18) I find and request the authorities put aside everything else to forensically analyse it lest it leads to a body.

You consider that all of the artefacts in places such as Sanctuary Wood, Cafe Le Tommy and the artefacts SOLD at Delville Wood and many other places are grave booty? Hahaha your a scream. Nobody is suggesting that people look for bones etc. Hohoho stop it please

What???

It is possible by using more methodical FORENSIC excavation and searching methods to locate and return these fallen PEOPLE.

The methods and ability to do so are known to us already.

Passing thought: Wouldn't it be great if suddenly finance were donated whereby a large archelogical and forensic project funded specifically to locate and formally bury etc the lost/fallen in that/any war

What! All of them?!? Just on the Western Front in the Great War or all wars? Everywhere? From all time?

To borrow from you:

Hahaha your [sic] a scream! Hohoho stop it please!

[davedixon]

You missed nothing more than a complete waste of space!

Never heard so much drivel in one post on the whole site.

Dave.

[uncle bill]

I went to the battlefields with my 9 year old son and one of his schoolfriends. They quite naturally found walking fields long and boring until my son found a nose cone. Boredom turned to fascination and he is now genuinely interested, if he'd left it on the ground perhaps he'd never have discovered an interest. It now sits on his desk, was this grave robbing ?

[davedixon]

Apparently so!

Dave.

[Max Poilu]

What I do not understand is the idea that all this stuff must be left where it is. As anyone with the remotest interest in the subject knows what is found on the surface is but the tinniest, tinniest tip of a colossal iceberg. None of us here advocate digging purely in terms of treasure hunting.

As I posted in this thread:

More Somme Relics

...As an example, last time I was in France, 2 months ago and walking not a million miles from Paul's house I found, on the surface a piece of French clay pipe and a small penknife within 50 yards of each other. Both Great War period. What to do?:

1: Leave them there. [To be picked up by someone else/swallowed up by the ground/decay to nothing/broken up by a plough]

2: Report the find to the authorities as possible evidence of a body below.

3: Find the farmer who owns the land and give them to him.

4: Keep them, preserve them and the location and know they will never be lost but preserved for future generations.

Different people will have different views.

In addition the vast majority of relics that are found are items relating to ordnance, be that whole unexploded shells/grenades or component parts thereof. An infinitesimally small portion could ever be considered 'personal'. All this once again has been argued about and discussed by both sides.

The most puzzling thing for me though is when the detritus of war (in the eyes of the 'relic antis') becomes an issue. Should everything discarded by the Great War be left there now just because those events took place 90 odd years ago? Is this not a modern idea born from the current trend for 'television archeology'? Should it not have been touched in the 60's - was it an archaeological treasure then? What about in the 30's when it had lay there for only a decade or two? What about the current war in Iraq? Should all the crap be left in the desert for future generations to analyse? What about the first Gulf war or the Falklands? Has enough time passed for it to be considered no longer dangerous or useless rubbish but a clue to what took place? Immediately after any war the same pattern will follow just as in 14-18; most of the unexploded items will be removed, anything useful will be claimed by the returning population and dare I say much will be salvaged for sale as future 'souvenirs'.

[Ozzie]

Bad habit of mine. Quick glance, Troll alert, didn't bother finishing it. Let's hope I didn't miss anything important.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If we do this all the time we may miss something. Everyone has a right to their beliefs and shouldn't be ridiculed. This person has, as he stated, only just found the forum. If he had done some searches on the forum and read the posts relating to the matter, he may not have voiced such strong opinions.

I think if you reread his post you might find that the thread of it is about small personal items which have been taken silently, that may have led to the discovery of a soldiers identity. I don't know that he actually meant ammo etc.

But that is the drift I got anyway.

The Western front differs from Gallipoli (In particular, Anzac Cove, still a relatively 'untouched' area), in that it is a farming region and therefore is a continually disturbed area. This is unavoidable and the right of the landowner. We can only hope that the landowner and people who come across artifacts report these finds to an authority who will endevour to do the best in the circumstances. But human nature what it is, then, I am afraid that there are alot of soldiers whose last resting place will never be known, when well conducted research of an area may have identified them. Money and human curiousty/greed/ need/ willfullness and sometimes just plain- don't care- will have taken any clues to lead to identification.

But, we do remember them and as someone did say, maybe their final resting place with their mates, instead of a cemetry, might be more fitting. After all it is only the remaining that need a place to visit, a marked area with an inscription to say that was my relative. Those who have died are now in a place where cold, hunger and pain cannot touch them.

I wonder what they would think of all this.

Regards

Kim

[Simon R]

[

The most puzzling thing for me though is when the detritus of war (in the eyes of the 'relic antis') becomes an issue. Should everything discarded by the Great War be left there now just because those events took place 90 odd years ago? Is this not a modern idea born from the current trend for 'television archeology'? Should it not have been touched in the 60's - was it an archaeological treasure then? What about in the 30's when it had lay there for only a decade or two? What about the current war in Iraq? Should all the crap be left in the desert for future generations to analyse? What about the first Gulf war or the Falklands? Has enough time passed for it to be considered no longer dangerous or useless rubbish but a clue to what took place? Immediately after any war the same pattern will follow just as in 14-18; most of the unexploded items will be removed, anything useful will be claimed by the returning population and dare I say much will be salvaged for sale as future 'souvenirs'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Giles point is very well made and really goes to the heart of the matter.

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

Bad habit of mine. Quick glance, Troll alert, didn't bother finishing it. Let's hope I didn't miss anything important.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I found alot of his post most interesting and i agree with much of it.

I could not bring myself to collect anything from the battlefields.

My opinion.

Roalnd.

[shaymen]

Agree - with Giles on this

We seem to have been arguing this point ever since I joined this forum - good healthy debates they have been

Well take what Giles last post says - totally agree with him -

Bottom line it just seems like common sense to me.

We go to the battlefields (not with spade and detectors) - we walk the areas - we find things - we keep them (except ordnance which looks a bit live - whole shells etc) we treasure our finds (even a shrapnell ball) - we spend time cleaning / preserving them - our children find them fascinating etc etc.

Where is the problem in that - for me I dont see one.

Glyn

[Guest PAJORO]

That was a funny reply.

No it didn't take me long to type, probably 3-4 minutes.

Apologies for the 2nd post of the same message as I'm not familiar with the forum setup. I never usually engage in forums. However, I couldn't resist this one.

Thanks for the Troll tag (wink). I laughed so hard when I read that. Anyways if that's your level it's better to be a troll that a graverobber or a battlefield pecker.

Your right feasability raises issues.

Amazing your another one of those folks who espouse opinions with the 'I've read that book of 'How to Personally Calculate Unknown Vast Avergage Statistics' and then apply it to their own opinion as qualification. Stop stating the impossible. You don't know how many people share your view.

There is nothing extreme in my opinion. Your the extreme chum, with your most folks think the same as me routine.

From 'The Friendly Troll'

[Guest PAJORO]

I found alot of his post most interesting and i agree with much of it.

I could not bring myself to collect anything from the battlefields.

My opinion.

Roalnd.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quite right. Schoolchildren are now actively encouraged and engaging in the educational tours of these battlefields.