Jack Sheldon Posted 30 August , 2005 Share Posted 30 August , 2005 Here's a bit more on heavy artillery during the Somme bombardment. The source of much of this information comes from 'The Statistics of the Effort of the British Empire in the Great War' - everyone's favourite bedtime reading of course. On 1 Jul 16,there were 8x15" howitzers in France, along with 30x12" howitzers and 1x12" gun. Other howitzer calibres used were 9.2", 8" and 6", as well as lesser guns. During the week to 2 Jul 16 they fired 1,383x15" and 5,197x12" shells. It is assumed that all or almost all of these were fired on the Somme front. It is known for sure that 3x15" howitzers were allocated to VIII Corps and used almost exclusively to batter Serre and Beaumont Hamel with 587 rounds. That leaves 795 rounds fired elewhere. Because of the importance of Thiepval as a target, it must assumed that some of these guns were used against it. A 15" battery only had one gun, so it is possible that they were scattered along the remainder of the front, but a fair guess is that 3x15" were allocated to the sector Ancre - Ovillers and the other two to the front south of there. As we all know there was a two day delay in mounting the attack and the ammo expenditure of all the heavy artillery reflects this. The peak day was 28 Jun, when, for example 118x15" were fired, compared with 66x15" on 30 Jun and 70x15" on 1 Jul 16. Figures for 12" are 193 (28th) and 34 (1st). During the final two days and 1 Jul 16 itself, the reduction in super-heavy rounds was compensated for by a sharp increase in expenditure by other weapons. Examples: 9.2"(1,518 on 1 Jul 16), 8",825 on 28 Jun, 2,569 on 1 Jul, 60pdr 3,967 28 Jun and 6,105 1 Jul and 4.7" howitzer, 742 28 Jun and 1,732 1 Jul As you can see there was plenty of scope for duds. The reason for marines firing the 15" howitzers is that they were derived from naval guns, as were the shells. Originall designed to bring plunging fire down on steel armour plate, they had to be given new fuses for army use. They were precision items, anecdotally costing as much as an aeroplane of the day each and difficult to manufacture with complete precision. Some detonation chain failures were to be expected. One thing is quite certain. They were mightily feared by the defenders. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 30 August , 2005 Share Posted 30 August , 2005 I forgot to add that there was considerable gunnery expertise in the Royal Marines. In addition to being carried on HM Men o' War to provide infantry and musketry skills, traditionally they also manned Y Turret of major warships - though just to break the pattern, Major FJW Harvey RM was actually commanding Q Turret on HMS Lion, when he received the VC for ordering the flooding of the magazine below, just after he was mortally wounded by the explosion of a German shell in the turret at Jutland. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 30 August , 2005 Share Posted 30 August , 2005 Was there not some controversy about the standard of British fuses around the time of the Somme? There were a lot of 'prematures' blamed on defective fuses. As a result many shells were fired without the gun teams having set the fuses, as a precaution against an explosion in the barrel. Hence the large number of British duds in the Somme area? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 31 August , 2005 Share Posted 31 August , 2005 Thanks to everyone who provided information about the 15" British howitzers on the Somme. I had not appreciated this was the case. Very interesting. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Gray Posted 1 September , 2005 Share Posted 1 September , 2005 I think you can see film of one of these big guns in action in "The Battle Of The Somme", (I borrowed the video's from my local library). The name "Naval Gun" conjures up a vision of great long barelled monsters, however, the actual guns used were very short barelled affairs. In the film, the weather is obviously pretty wet as all of the crew are wearing oilskins. Well worth a look. Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnsey Posted 25 November , 2005 Share Posted 25 November , 2005 As regards the large shells being on/near the surface: I've seen at an arty range, guns fired at quite shallow deflection - I watched one shell (dud training round) skip along the ground for a frightening distance! I'm not sure as to the ranges being spoken about, but this may offer an answer. Regards Pat Barnes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 25 November , 2005 Share Posted 25 November , 2005 Barnsey Ricochet shells - maybe, but I thought they were fitted with a 'Graze' fuse, designed to detonate despite the angle of impact? I still believe deliberate non-setting of fuses has some contribution to the large numbers of British duds from that period. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodB Posted 26 November , 2005 Share Posted 26 November , 2005 thanks for the photos guys. They got me thinking that it always seems to be Germans I see in photos with British duds. Was this part of a deliberate propaganda campaign, does it just reflect that most duds were British, or did the Germans just enjoy taking this kind of photo more than the British ? Or have I just missed all the British photos with German duds ? Are there any statistics on the breakdown of dud shells recovered ? regards Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malte Znaniecki Posted 26 November , 2005 Share Posted 26 November , 2005 Hi Rod this is what the country I live in was able to give Best from Hamburg Malte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnsey Posted 26 November , 2005 Share Posted 26 November , 2005 Barnsey Ricochet shells - maybe, but I thought they were fitted with a 'Graze' fuse, designed to detonate despite the angle of impact? I still believe deliberate non-setting of fuses has some contribution to the large numbers of British duds from that period. Ian <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're more than likely correct. As I said, the ones I have seen were non-explosive training rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid_Ian Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 Of course the fact that this was found at Thiepval does not necessarily mean the shell was fired in 1916 - as indeed with the ones I saw at Beaucourt all those years ago. It shows how times have changed; one of the Beaucourt shells sat there for 9+ months, and many visitors had their photos taken by it! Modern versions of the wartime PCs above! Slightly off topic but here goes, During my Service in R.A.F. as a Photographer I spent some time in the Falklands (1 year after war) I made a fortune photographing fellow servicemen next to a tail fin from a 500lb bomb which we used to drop into the Peat at an angle and then had a kettle of hot water poured over (so that the bomb was steaming as if just dropped) I wonder how many of these fake hero's photos will be used as factual to grandkids etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 Druid, I'd like to see that example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid_Ian Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 Druid, I'd like to see that example Sadly all my photos taken in the Falklands where stolen from me on the way back. could have killed the guy if I got hold of him. some very good photos lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 You mean stolen from a fellow soldier? That's a real whopper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid_Ian Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 You mean stolen from a fellow soldier? That's a real whopper! Unfortunatly Yes. Had some great photos of battle damage, Mines Argentine trenches and Sangars. at the time all the battlefield debris was still in place. I can remember standing guard in an Argentine trench during an exercise with lots of their wartime personal kit lying about. can imagine what must be left to be found on the Western front sealed in some of the lost dugouts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 You mean stolen from a fellow soldier? That's a real whopper! CSM " Where's your TOS?" Me "Somebody stole it while I was having my dinner. Sir" CSM " Well%^$£*ing go and )(*&^ing steal another!" Exit. Stage left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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