49th West Riding Division

[n.lamb]

Thanks for that Tony

Can't do much newspaper searching at the moment because Keighley reference library has been closed for over a year for refurb. Will look when it reopens.

Thanks again

[GaryJS]

Thanks for all this information Tony. I know how arduous it is typing up all those war diaries! This thread is a gem. I will be following it closely as it is of great relevance to me / my ancestry! I've ordered the 1/4th Regimental History book by P.G. Bales.

Gary

[DaveKey]

Hi,

I'm hoping someone may be able to help me with a bit of detail with regard to the assembly of the 49th (West Riding) Division through to their entraining and embarkation for France in April 1915.

In "The Long, Long Trail" it says:

1915

On 31 March the Division was warned that it would go on overseas service and entrainment began on 12 April. Divisional infantry went via Folkestone-Boulogne while all other units went from Southampton to Le Havre.

In particular I am interested to know if there are any specific details of the route taken by those units that embarked at Southampton.

What I can find suggests that they began entrainment on 12 April and embarked for France on the 15th. So, assuming I've got that right, where did they go between those dates?

Does anyone know where they encamped/were billeted, or have a record of the process?

Any help very much appreciated.

Cheers

Dave

[mmm45]

Dave

49th Div were at Doncaster

Entrained Doncaster to Folkestone and on the evening of 14th crossed to Boulogne arriving at 1115 pm

Advance party had left on 12th April.

Ady

[DaveKey]

Hi Ady,

Thanks, that matches what I'd seen elsewhere for the majority of the Division, What I'm really keen to find out is which units didn't go via Folkestone but rather embarked from Southampton. For these units, whether any detail of their route from Doncaster to Southampton survives, for example was it a direct entrain at Doncaster detrain at Southampton/Folkestone ... or was the journey broken at any point?

Cheers

Dave

[mmm45]

http://www.cpgw.org.uk/cpgwBook.cfm?pgID=018

Looks like Machine Guns and Transport from 1/6th West Ridings went via Southampton-Havre on 12/13th

Ill see what 1/4th History says If theres a Divisional Diary it may have a Move Order in it?

Ady

[HMS Bergamot]

I'm hoping for some information on this forum (of course!). My expertise is the WW1 Naval war, and I am happy to answer any questions on that subject, but my 13yr old nephew is researching his Great Grand uncle.

His name was Serjeant Leonard Clarkson 2342, of the 1st / 6th Battalion, Duke of Wellington's Regiment. He was born in doncaster, yorkshire in 1897(?), and lived (Definately) at 32 Buller Street, Grimsby. He was a Clerk before his call up. (I've got a copy of his call up form).

He died on the 26th July, 1916, and is buried at Lonsdale Cemetary, Authuile.

Questions: As a 19 year old, he must have been pretty outstanding to be promoted to a sergeant already. Would this be a reasonable assumption?

What on earth were the 147th Brigade doing on the 26th July? They would seem to be on the outskirts of Pozieres, but that village was secured by the 24th July (or was it?).

Was there a definate operation in which clarkson was killed, or was he just unlucky, and a wandering shell with his name on it found him?

Any help extremely thankfully received.

Richard

[Chris Noble]

Good evening Richard.

Though not a 'Dukes' man, I may be able to give you a bit of information as regards Leonard's service.

His Medal Index Card records that he landed on the Western Front on the 14th April 1915. This places the Battalion, in Division, in the Laventie Sector east of Neuve Chapelle.

After serving in this sector, once again, the Battalion, in Division, moved northwards in the autumn of that year to the Ypres Salient, more specifically, north of the town on the banks of the Canal Sector.

Moving south in early 1916, the Division prepared for the Somme offensive, placed in reserve to the 36th (Ulster) Division. Although not directly involved in the attack, post 1st July, the units of the Division maintained a 'foothold' in what was referred to as the Leipzig Salient, captured, or at least a small part of it, on the 1st July by the 32nd Division.

From about mid July, the 49th (West Riding) Division were tasked with the defence of this position. Enemy attempts to retake the position were numerous with various units of the Division rotating in the line. Some on occupation of the position were subjected to flammenwerfer attacks, a German flamethrower.

Actions were at times 'vicious' to say the least but tenaciously the men held on. Therefore, I would assume in conjunction with the location of Leonard's grave, he was killed whilst defending this position.

Best wishes to your nephew and I hope this has provided him with a start at least.

Chris.

[HMS Bergamot]

Thankyou Chris. Each bit makes the fog of history just a little clearer.

Richard

[bmac]

Wondering if any knows why the 49th Division was so short of men in March and April 1916 that men were taken from 62nd (2nd West Riding) Division to bring them up to strength, thus delaying the arrival of that division until early 1917 when it had been expected in France in late July 1916. I know the 49th Division lost c. 750 men in the first Phosgene attack in December 15 but that is not an awfully large number relative the size of a division. Was their attrition rate in the trenches afterwards particularly heavy? Any thoughts gratefully received.

[Chris Noble]

Hello bmac.

Without looking at any data at the minute as regards in particular the 49th Division, there are further men gassed after the 15th December 1915, the 20th seems if I remember quite a significant date. I will have to check.

As regards the Division per se during the months of March/April 1916, once again, without checking any data, I cannot be precise. However, to the West Yorkshire Regiment Battalions of the Division drafts are arriving from multiple sources. Garrison, I do believe some from Malta, inter battalion transfers, from one West Yorkshire Battalion to another just to name a few.

Apart from enemy actions during late 15, I can only think that due to the prolonged 'stint' on the Canal Bank, many may have gone sick.

Busy week ahead what with work commitments but if I get the chance I will add something to the post with something more 'concrete.'

Best wishes.

Chris.

[bmac]

Chris,

Any insights welcomed. The reason I ask is that the 62nd reinforcing the 49th in March 16 is given as a reason why the 62nd was replaced in a group of 2nd Line Territorial Divisions due to go to France in May by the 59th Division. The 59th division was then sent to Ireland during the Easter Rebellion. Of course, the 62nd then didn't get to France until early 17.

[Chris Noble]

Hello Bill.

Apologies for the delay as looking at various sources took a considerable length of time.

The reasons for numerous drafts to the 49th Division during this period, March/April 1916 are quite varied but I will commence with the question of drafts from the 62nd Division.

During 1915 it is true that the latter were in effect acting as a 'feeder' unit for the 49th Division much to their disdain. For example as early as May 1915 the 2/6th West Yorks were ordered to form a Base Detachment for the 1/6th Battalion and even prior to this over 100 men were transferred for service in drafts to the Regular Army.

May seems to have been quite a busy month for the output of men; Formation of the 3rd Line Unit, 3/6th at Bradford, 236 N.C.O.'s and 3 officers, 200 men for service abroad, 142 men for Depot, 312 for Home Service however there is also a 'push and pull' effect with 274 men rejoining the Battalion from the 3rd Line. The latter figures of men in and out of the 62nd Division are pretty much replicated throughout all units comprising the latter.

The 'key' Bill is this formation of the 3rd Line. It is primarily this that is providing drafts for service overseas.

Regarding the 49th Division circa January/February/March 1916, the strength of the comprising units would appear to fluctuate whilst they are in Corps Reserve. For example in February 1916 the strength of the 1/8th Battalion is recorded as 766 O/Rs but this has increased to 804 by March. On the other hand, the 1/4th Yorks & Lancs declares that its expected establishment should number around 860 Other Ranks. If this establishment is 'expected' division wide I cannot say but on the other hand the 1/5th Yorks & Lancs record rather worryingly of the appreciable number of time expired men leaving the battalion, a significant loss in particular of Warrant Officers and Senior Sergeants.

Taking just that factor into consideration, there is also to take into account the number of men taken from each battalion in late January 1916 to form the Brigade Machine Gun Companies. I would assume that this is also the case with the Trench Mortar Batteries.

This all leads to the large number of drafts coming in, nearly all from the 3rd Line but with some exceptions as I stated in my previous post. One point of interest that I came across is the movement of men in the 1/5th Battalion, West Yorks. A Draft of 26 O/R's in March, had to be isolated due to an outbreak of German Measles by the Brigade however I am not quite sure how wide spread this outbreak became but there was also an inspection carried out due to Scabies also.

I've tried to summarise Bill all the above factors as best I can but all these together basically contribute to the shortfall of men in my own opinion. If you require any specific details, please feel free to drop me a line and I will do my best.

Best wishes.

Chris.

[HMS Bergamot]

Hello friends,

You know, the more you learn, the more questions appear than answers. I've more questions, I'm afraid.

Sgt Leonard Clarkson, 2342, was in B Company of the 1/6 Duke of Wellington's West Riding Regiment. I don't suppose that there is a photograph of B company out there anywhere? Or a list of the make up of B Company?

He was slighlty wounded in the hand on the 2nd July by a small shell splinter, treated and remained on duty. This happened at "Crucifix dug outs". Would these dug outs be near Crucifix Corner, or were they somewhere else?

Around the 20th July his company were in "Belfast City" in Thiepval Wood for over a week. Again, any information on this would be greatfully received.

He was killed on the 25th July by shell. (So it was quick, at least). He was in Johnson's Post, just outside of Thiepval Wood. The Gemans opened a heavy bombardment on that post between 11am and 5pm on the 25th July, doinf considerable damage to the trenches. Is there any other information of Johnson's post? Photo's, etc, would be brilliant.

I hold a bated breath.

Richard

[keithmroberts]

The only list by company that I know of for the 1/6th is the list in the battalion history by Tempest of men who were in the various companies when the unit went to France on April 15 1915. He is not included in the list of casualties at Appendix 3 of the book. (The history has been reprinted by the Naval and Military press. There are some photographs in the original printing. An undated one headed 2The Signallers" includes a L/C Clark.

Keith