49th West Riding Division

[Tony Lund]

It looks as if the number of men who actually made this attack was relatively small:

146th Infantry Brigade.

1st 6th West Yorkshires, Lieutenant Colonel Hudson, one and a half Companies, strength estimated at 160 per company, total 240. 49 deaths.

1st 8th West Yorkshires, Lieutenant Colonel Alexander, one and a half Companies, strength estimated at 155 per company, total 232. 64 deaths.

147th Infantry Brigade.

1st 4th Dukes, Major Walker, 3 Companies of 130 men, total 390. 147 deaths.

1st 5th Dukes, 2 Companies, strength still unknown. 106 deaths.

I am still looking for any further information on this incident.

Tony.

[Lambretta150]

Good Afternoon. Virgin on the site and first post, ever! This seems like a good place to begin. I am trying to locate any details of the service of my paternal Grandfather, particularly his commissioned service in the RFA. I am almost certain that this would be in the West Riding Division. Name was Reginald Hutchinson Sutch and he entered France in 1916 as a 2nd Lt. Not much to go on but do any of the wise owls out there have any reference to him that would place him in a unit. A photograph would be a pearl beyond price as we have none.

[Lambretta150]

Simon

Thank you very much for coming back to me on this. "Yes" The MIC that you have highlighted is indeed that for my Grandad.

It is this card (which I have downloaded and it contains no more than can be seen for free) that pointed me in the way of the RFA and the frustration of not having a number or a unit for him!

It is, I suspect, a verey small world, my brother (for whom, at least in part, I am doing this research) is also a "Simon R."

Ultimate aim of all this, and related civilian, research is to write a monograph for family consumption and put together a framed display (s) of military connections and memorabilia stretching back from my own little bit to the more substantive contributions of both sides of the family in two World Wars, Palestine and before WWI in the Yeomanry.

Without wishing to launch too much of a red herring, the thought frequently occurs to me whilst researching that we should not be paying the charges to view National Archive images, census returns and the like. It is surely our data as we are the Nation.............

Can't do anything about it though - the Nanny State got my Grandads German Rifle off me in the Firearms Amnesty in 1968! Lovely old thing it was, ramp sights, useless safety catch, polished stock, man-sized bayonet fittings.................

Any contributions gratefully received after, as you infer, the consumption of calory bombs has ceased!

Regards

Adam

[Tony Lund]

Without wishing to launch too much of a red herring, the thought frequently occurs to me whilst researching that we should not be paying the charges to view National Archive images, census returns and the like. It is surely our data as we are the Nation.............

I have got to agree with that, and if someone is looking into a village or a town, even a fifty pence per person census check can add up to a substantial amount.

I believe my Grandfather and his mates have already paid.

Tony.

[Lambretta150]

... and just look at the farce that entails every time a large archive like the census goes out to tender. And libraries - telling me to look up 1901 online, at a cost, when I'm physically stood next to the microfilm of the town in question - only they've hived off their reader so the microfilm is redundant!

Anyway - why are we certain that RHS was in the 49th Divison?

I cannot recall his name from any of my files for RFA 49th Div. arty., but my notes are by no means exhaustive. Rflory, on the other hand, is all knowing - try mailing him, he's very useful and very helpful.

Thanks to you both.

Glad the sideways excursion stopped when it did - this is a research site not a revolutionary one!

I am not at all certain that RHS was 49th Div, althoug very certain that he was RFA (London Gazette info). I can only recall meeting him twice in my life and we did not talk of his military experiences.

49Div is largely a presumption of mine based upon the fact that all of both sides of my family are Yorkshire born and Yorkshire bred for generations back and all other military service until my own has been carried out with Yorkshire units: - KOYLI, EYR, Yorkshire Dragoons and (cheating a bit) York and Lancaster (Cat and Cauliflower).

I will, as you suggest contact Rflory and see if he has a Eureka Moment on this.

Happy New Year Adam

[dorrie]

Just found this thread has anybody any information on Captain reginald Maw Pinder of the 1/5th duke of wellingtons. I hvae the usual information off the 1901 Census and CWGC just trying to supplement this information

Thanks

tim

[Simon R]

[49Div is largely a presumption of mine based upon the fact that all of both sides of my family are Yorkshire born and Yorkshire bred for generations back and all other military service until my own has been carried out with Yorkshire units: - KOYLI, EYR, Yorkshire Dragoons and (cheating a bit) York and Lancaster (Cat and Cauliflower).

Where was he from? And which btn. of the Yorks and Lancs was he in prior to transfer?

[dorrie]

Simon

The 1/5th Duke of welllingtons are a Yorkshire Regiment raised in Huddersfield. Reginald Maw Pinder came from Horfsorth, Leeds

Tim

[Tony Lund]

Captain reginald Maw Pinder of the 1/5th duke of wellingtons.

You could try asking the regiment at Halifax about the War Diary entry for the day.

rhq@dukesrhq.demon.co.uk

The Regimental Secretary

Regimental Headquarters

The Duke of Wellington’s Regiment

Wellesley Park

Halifax

West Yorkshire

HX2 0BA

Telephone: 01422 361671

Tony.

[dorrie]

Thanks Tony i will give it a go

[Lambretta150]

Where was he from? And which btn. of the Yorks and Lancs was he in prior to transfer?

Simon, Good Evening. Sorry about the delay in coming back to you - All the information that I currently have, largely from his medal card, is that he was a Private then a Lance Corporal in York and Lancs Regt, that he entered France on 19th May 1916 and that his Army Number as a soldier was either 1625 or 1525 (the clerk seems to have been on the pop before completing this card!). I also know that he was commissioned as a 2nd lieutenant on the Special Reserve part of RFA, commission date 1 October 1917. My previous supposition was that he entered France first with the RFA, it now appears that he had a period of service in France with the York and Lancasters. Very grateful for the interest taken and any help that emerges. I may well be unable to make further posts until Friday (pm) - away earning a crust - but this does not mean that my interest is waning!

Regards

Adam

[Lambretta150]

Where was he from? And which btn. of the Yorks and Lancs was he in prior to transfer?

Simon - pays to answer the whole question dosen't it? You are not dealing with a moron, honestly, I put it down to having spent most of the the day with my Mother-in-Law!

The answer to the second part is that RH Sutch was born in Wakefield in the second Quarter of 1896 (June, I think, but not yet confirmed with a primary source). His parents were William Frederick John Sutch, born Bayswater in 1864, and Martha Sutch, nee Hutchinson, born Thornhill, Wakefield in 1868.

Adam

[dorrie]

Tony i e mailed the duke of Wellington Museum yesterday and got a great reply back today thanks for advice.

Cheers

Tim

[Simon R]

There's no guarantee he was comm. into the 49th artillery - he could have conceivably gone anywhere, as far as I know Wakefield never raised TF arty. (haven't checked so please feel free to disagree), closest it got was having 2nd WR bde. RFA billetted there 1914 en route to war station Doncaster from Bradford 13th/14th August - 1st day B.ford to Wakefield, 14 miles, 2nd Day Wakefield to Doncaster 20 miles.

Billets at Wakefied

HQ staff: Bull Hotel, 6 officers

4th&5th btys.: Ings Road, 10 officers, 400 men

1 sect. amm. col.: Board School

6thbty. amm. col: Westgate, 6 officers, 200 men

1 sect. amm. col: Infants School

4th bty and amm. col horses: cattle shed, Ings Road 180 horses

5th&6th bty.: Cattle mkt. and Calf mkt., 210 horses

All guns and vehicles: Ings Road School Yard

Entirely tangential to your query, but interesting from a Wakefield point of view. I'd be tempted to get someone to pull out his file at PRO - some kind soul on the forum may be willing to help.

[Lambretta150]

There's no guarantee ..................... I'd be tempted to get someone to pull out his file at PRO - some kind soul on the forum may be willing to help.

Simon. Many thanks. The email telling me that you had made this post has only just arrived with me. The more we (You) look the more likely it is that my first thoughts were just a stab in the dark.

I have since found out that it is possible that he initially went to France with the York and Lancaster Regt as a Lance Corporal and not first as an RFA Officer. His Y&L serial number is very low and I wonder if he was a Barnsley Pal? Enough "supposin." I need evidence.

You are absolutely right about the PRO/National Archive angle and one of the happy bits of serendipity over this Christmas is that I have found out by an exchange of Christmas Cards that a chap I shared a flat with 25 years ago still lives in London, is now pretty much a full time military researcher knows Tony Robinson and everything! He can I am sure be persuaded to shamble off to Kew and have a peek.

That was the good news. I know that my Granddad was commissioned in the ACF (as an Instructor, the age gap was too big to lie about it!) in WW2 and I have his "P Number" but I think that this WW2 service means that his Docs will still be with MOD and their sub-contractors, TNT, in Glasgow. I don't mind paying the charge (as I am doing for my Fathers records) but I am not too sanguine about success.

I spent hours last night going through the National Archive site WO/374 series and only came up with two Sutch Officer files - one has the right initials "RH" but is a "Revd" and is, I think, either a Brother or an Uncle of his. My father talked about "Uncle Ron" who became a senior Churchman and that must be the chap. 'Tother is an "SC Sutch" and I don't have a clue about him.

So, the plan is: Try the PRO through my Chum, get to Yorkshire and do the Wakefield Newspaper Archives, Barnsley Newspapers Archive (he played Rugby for them before the War) the York and Lancaster Museum and Archive and try and get something concrete that at least takes us as far as when he started his Officer training.

I will, if you like, keep you posted as I track him down. If I know the Unit he was with, I know where he was. If I know where he was, I know what he did and who he was with. Simple really...........

Lambrettas for Ever

Adam

[bigronhartley]

Hello Adam, I note from your correspondence that your man played Rugby for Barnsley. Was that Union or League. If he played Union, the Yorkshire Rugby Football Union produced a Memorial Year Book (approx 1920) which lists all playing members who served in the Great War giving details of their unit. If you have not contacted Dick Flory, it is worth mentioning because he has a copy of the book. I hope this is helpful. Regards, Ron

[Tony Lund]

The History of the 1st 4th Battalion, Duke of Wellington’s West Riding Regiment says that it is possible the Pope’s Nose was empty of Germans for a while, and it does seem that it could well be the case.

Writing to Willie Lawton’s brother from a hospital in England, Corporal Brierley, 1st 5th Battalion, Duke of Wellington’s West Riding Regiment, gave this account of the attack on the Pope’s Nose:

“Well, Willie was in my section and went over with me on the 3rd of September, on the Sunday morning at five past five. We reached the German first and second line in quick time, and we had been there for some time when they started to shell us very heavily, and I lost my men nearly. Your brother was in the second line when he was killed with two more men. They all died together I am sorry to say. Willie was a great pal of mine. We had spent some time in the trenches together. You will see where I am and I should like to see you.”

In another letter to a friend of Willie’s at Brockholes the same corporal wrote:

“Three of my men were done with the same shell. He was killed instantly and his comrades with him, and I was wounded soon after. I was struck by a bomb and had to get away the best way I could. We lost very heavily and a lot of the wounded were taken prisoners. We lost all our officers.”

It looks as if the 147th Infantry Brigade got through to the second line and both attacking battalions were then forced out, the 1st 5th first, and then the 1st 4th Battalion.

Tony.

[Tony Lund]

Yes, Willie Lawton lived a couple of miles from Holmfirth, but he worked at the Holmfirth Picturedrome so he was quite well known, hence the Holmfirth Express interest.

I am finding some men who were reported missing from 3rd September are being declared dead in July 1917 and letters from friends sometime appear with obituaries so there may be more information to come.

Tony.

[Tony Lund]

The War diary of the 1st 5th Battalion, Duke of Wellington’s West Riding Regiment for the 3rd September 1916:

“The battalion was in position about 3-45 a.m. A, B & D Companies occupied the Assembly Parallels and C Company in dugouts in the old British Front Line. Battalion headquarters and the H.Q. Company were accommodated in Whitchurch Street (about Q. 30. b. 8. 6). The 39th and 49th Divisions assaulted the German Lines astride the River Ancre, simultaneously at 5-10 a.m. The task of the 49th Division was to capture and consolidate the German front line and support trenches as follows, front line from R. 19. C. 8. 4. (Inclusive) to River Ancre. Support Line from R. 19. C. 9. 5. (Inclusive) to River Ancre. The objective of the 39th Division was the German trench from Q. 18. B. ½. 2. To Q. 17. B. 5. 8.

The assault was preceded by an intense Artillery barrage on the German front line for 3 minutes, under which the assaulting infantry advanced. The barrage lifted from the front line at 5-13 a.m. on to the Support Line for a further 5 minutes. Heavy artillery in addition to 18 pounders, fired within limits of safety on Thiepval, Trench System R. 25. b. 40. 95 - 15. 90. - R. 19. c. 85. 20. R. 19. d. 05. 30. Trench System forming South front of Schwarben Redoubt, Strassburg Trench and St. Pierre Divion. The attacking troops of the 49th Division were 146th Brigade and 147th Brigade.

The dispositions of the 147th Brigade were as follows:

1/4th West Riding Regiment, Right assaulting battalion with its objective, front line, R. 19. c. 8. 4. (Inclusive) to R. 19. c. 5. 4. (Inclusive), German support line from R. 19. c. 9. 5. (Inclusive) to R. 19. c. 6. 6. (Inclusive).

1/5th West Riding Regiment, Left assaulting battalion with its objective, front line from R. 19. c. 5. 4. (Exclusive) to R. 19. 6. 1. 6. German support line from R. 19. c. 6. 6. (Exclusive) to R. 19. c. 3. 8. (Inclusive).

1/7th West Riding Regiment in Brigade Support and accommodated in assembly slits in Forres Street, Thiepval Wood.

1/6th West Riding Regiment, in Brigade Reserve accommodated at the North Bluff. (Q. 36. D.)

The whole attack failed. The 146th Brigade did not reach its objective and although the 147th Brigade reached their objective they were unable to hold it.

The 1/5th West Riding Regiment was commanded by Lieutenant Colonel H. A. S. Stanton, D.S.O. The other officers at H.Q. were Captain & Adjutant K. Sykes M.C., Second Lieutenant R. H. Brown, Bomb Officer; Second Lieutenant J. B Cockhill, Lewis Gun Officer.

A Company, Lieutenant McLintock (in command), Second Lieutenant Whitelaw, Second Lieutenant E. T. Sykes, Second Lieutenant E. G. Wattkinson.

B Company. Lieutenant A. N. Sharpe (in command), Second Lieutenant G. R. Gledhill, Second Lieutenant Riley, Second Lieutenant Rush;

C Company, Lieutenant J. M. Haigh (in command), Second Lieutenant E. Lumb, Second Lieutenant E. W. Harris.

D Company, Second Lieutenant De Corta (in command), Second Lieutenant D. Black, Second Lieutenant H. Taylor;

And 1st Echelon in Reserve at Transport Lines, Major G. P. Norton D.S.O.,Second Lieutenant West, Second Lieutenant Mitchell, Second Lieutenant Ridgeway, Second Lieutenant Fisher.

The dispositions of the battalion were as follows: A & D Companies had to capture the German Front line from R. 19. c. 53. 40. (Exclusive) to R. 19. c. 1. 6. (Inclusive). B Company had to capture the German Support Line from R. 19. c. 68. 70. (Exclusive) to R. 19. c. 3. 8.(Inclusive). C Company was in Reserve. ½ Company in dugouts north west of Elgin Avenue in the Front Line, and ½ Company in dugouts north west of Elgin Avenue at junction of Elgin & Whitchurch Street. Headquarters and H.Q. Company were accommodated in Whitchurch Street

D Company seemed to take its position under our barrage fairly correctly but the 4th Platoon instead of assaulting on both sides of the East KOYLI Trench seemed to get the whole of the platoon on the east side of the trench leaving a serious gap in the middle of the Company and actually at Point 25. This would not have mattered if the Battalion on our left had reached its objective. As it was D Company had to withstand bombing attacks on its left, from its centre and later on from its right. It was impossible to get bombs up to the half Company between points 16 and 25. The right half Company did receive bombs about 7-30 a.m. taken up over the open. The Company, according to the report of Second Lieutenant De Corta, evidently made a very good fight for it and only retired when they had no more bombs, having previously seen the troops on his right retire to our front Parallels. They retired from the German Line about 9-30 a.m.

As regards A & B Companies no accurate information could be obtained. In the case of B Company no officer returned at all and of A Company only one came back. What seems to have happened is as follows. A Company seems to have got mixed with the left Company of 1/4th WRR and assaulted with them. The result was that there was a bad bunch of men opposite the reentrant between points 25 and 54. The Germans turned a Machine Gun on to this party causing several causalities. The party must then have swung to its left and right leaving a disastrous gap at the point where the communication trench meets the top of the reentrant between points 25 and 54, enabling the Germans later on to bomb east and west along their front line.

B Company assaulted the far support line but only about one third of them seems to have reached it. They lost heavily coming out of the Parallels and lost all their officers. So far as can be ascertained no officers reached the German support line.

No messages were received back at H.Q. during the whole operation. The only information which was obtained was from wounded men returning and they for the most part said we occupied both German Lines and had had very few casualties.

The Germans held the block in East KOYLI Trench and it proved a serious obstacle for us and was not cleared. Communication of any sort was bound to go over the open. From the reports of the 2 officers who returned to Battalion H.Q. from the battle it was ascertained that for the most part a really good fight was put up. If Battalion H.Q. had been able to have got any information back it is practically certain that the position would not have been lost. The men fought splendidly and in many cases without N.C.O.’s or officers, and the losing of the captured position was a piece of bad luck. As a proof of the hard fighting there were 350 casualties out of the 450 who assaulted the German Lines.

The Battalion after retiring to the Parallels, reestablished itself in the original British Line with posts out in the Parallels. The Battalion was relieved at night and during the early hours of September 4th by ½ Company of 4th York & Lancaster regiment. On relief it was accommodated in Aveluy Wood.

END.

Some of the handwriting was a bit unclear, mostly where names are listed, and some of these may be incorrect.

Tony.

[Tony Lund]

I wonder if any of the new members (or old ones) might have any information on any of the units or soldiers that were in the 49th division on September 3rd 1916.

Any information at all will be gratefully accepted.

Tony.

[Tony Lund]

A little more from the 1st 5th Battalion, Duke of Wellington’s Regiment. And many thanks to all who have assisted in gathering together information about the events of this day.

Commanding Officer’s Diary of Operations - 3/9/16.

5:12 a.m. Enemy M.G. opened apparently only one.

5:20 a.m. Forward report post states our troops had not come back.

5:35 a.m. Wounded man 4 W.R.R. arrives my H.Q. states our men in German front line.

5:55 a.m. Sent order to Support Coy. to carry ammunition across the open as EAST KOYLI is not open.

5:55 a.m. Party of 19th Lancashire Fusiliers 10 men arrive my H.Q. sent them on to EAST KOYLI trench to clear the same.

6:08 a.m. Sent Lt. Cockhill to front line to report on situation if possible, have had no reports of any kind so far.

6:25 a.m. Got Lt. [unreadable long name starting with H, possibly hyphenated] on phone at forward report post could give me no information except that EAST KOYLI was blocked with M.G. teams, Stokes teams & wounded.

6:30 a.m. Lt. Cockhill returned could not see anything, but he spoke to wounded, who stated that we had got the German front and support line with little opposition.

6:31 a.m. Sent Lt Haigh to find out if carrying parties were carrying across open as EAST KOYLI was blocked.

6:45 a.m. Wire received from Brigade stating that Right Batt. of 146th I.B. held up on S??? R??? Road.

7:45 a.m. Sent scout & two runners to go over to German front line and obtain a written report from an officer.

9:10 a.m. An officer of Stokes Battery reports from forward report post enemy holding Popes Nose our M.G.s firing on them.

9:20 a.m. Just issuing orders to Bomb officer to take up Rifle grenade squad and to O.C. Support Coy. to reinforce on right of EAST KOYLI when Major Walker reports his battalion had retired.

9:25 a.m. Sent Lt. Haigh to take charge of his company in our front line.

9:30 a.m. 2nd Lt. Da Costa arrives & reports that my Batt. has been obliged to retire from German line.

H.A.S. Stanton. Lieut. Col. 5th West Riding Regt.

Lieutenant Colonel Hugh Auriel S. Stanton - born 1880.

As always, if anyone has any more information on any unit involved it will be most welcome.

Tony.

[bigronhartley]

Hello Tony,

There are a couple of recent Threads with information regarding Lieutenant Colonel Hugh Auriel S. Stanton. Try searching for HAS Stanton. Hope this helps.

Regards

Ron

[Tony Lund]

Thanks, what (if anything) happened to this man was going to be my next question.

Tony.

[n.lamb]

I wonder if any of the new members (or old ones) might have any information on any of the units or soldiers that were in the 49th division on September 3rd 1916.

Any information at all will be gratefully accepted.

Tony.

Hi Tony

Just started tracing the Haworth war memorial today so havn't collected much info. and this forum looks like it could be a great help to me as 40 of th 100 names on the memorial are of soldiers from the Dukes.

Only one died 3/9/16 - he was Willie Dixon (William Robert) from the 1/5th Batt. Born & Enlisted in Haworth.

Number 241464. Killed in Action.

Hope that helps a bit.

Stormin

[Tony Lund]

If you decide to go through the local newspaper you might find a letter from one of his mates saying what happened to them. Most of the dead men seem to have been posted missing for almost a year before they were confirmed to be dead, so newspaper information tends to be in two bites, some at the end of September 1916 and some more around June/July 1917.

You will almost certainly find you have men killed on May 3rd 1917 with the 62nd Division at Bullecourt. There will be a thread to gather information about that in the near future.

Good luck with it,

Tony.