Guest Simon Bull Posted 25 July , 2003 Share Posted 25 July , 2003 I feel I have to stick up for Phillipe here. He is, in my experience, a kind man, generous of his time and who must have sunk considerable sums of his own money into researching and protecting the Great War heritage of the Cambrai area. When I met him he gave up the best part of a morning to showing me the Cambrai battlefield, despite a previous arrangement which had gone awry and wasted much of his time. I do not believe that he would in any way deliberately mislead on a subject as important as this. However, his English is not of the very best, and if what he said has misled people I feel sure this is the cause. Simon Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 25 July , 2003 Share Posted 25 July , 2003 Simon having read that I retract and apologize for my earlier harsh comment which at the time I felt appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 26 July , 2003 Share Posted 26 July , 2003 As a New Zealander, I would like to thank whoever has been and apparently still is looking after this grave.It seems to be in good condition, even if the family is no longer involved. He died a long way from home, but it is nice to see that someone still cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 (As I have previously asked, please be indulgent towards my English as I am French) I would like to give the last details and conclusion following the request I have done on behalf of the Souvenir Français of Cambrai for the abandoned private grave of Lieutenant MacMillan. First of all, I would like to take the opportunity to congratulate those of the CWGC for the skill, careful attention and serious they provide in maintaining in a so great and nice condition the cemeteries and monuments dedicated to the brave men who have print for ever our earth with their blood. To be a daily witness of their work and the extra tasks, to fight continuously day after day, summer like winter against not only the damage of the time but more specially these of the vandals. Again, this Saturday night have seen 45 stones broken by some moronic boys in the military cemetery of Saint Aubert. What a pity.... For Lieutenant Mac Millan, I was thinking that the story should have a good end as I have said that the grave will be maintain by the Souvenir Français. That has been done. {Edited by TD as moderator to remove personal comments about a Forum member}, I feel obliged to justified my enquiries and also the work which has been done. May I thank you very much those who stay neutral and those who have supported me. The justification which I do here is just for them. Nobody has to be blame for the condition of the grave but it has been impossible for us (Souvenir Français) to stay indifferent in contemplating the ravages of the time. Who could accept for an hero to see a dirty stone, a weed bed, the two stone borders out of their position (one broken was shift more than 10 centimetres compare to the other). I did not take a photograph as I did not expect to be attacked for wanting to restore the grave ! I have decided myself to try to get more information and this is the reason that made me use your excellent New Zealander forum. The request was done honestly without any other motive ( The French law protect the private property of the graves and nobody is allowed to transformed them or to take care of them without permission of the family. We have already get problems in not doing it !) The request for the photo was for the front of the stone. The citation was asked to be added in the visitors box of the military cemetery. When that request was done the work was already started : Ground cleared, Stone clean with high pressure water and also acid, stone borders replaced. The badge of the Souvenir Français was then added (this is the French tricolour cockade which is visible on the bottom border of the graves). Then we have ordered specially some quartz (small very nice white stones)to cover the ground. Unhappily a photograph done after that work was done was put on the Great War forum and of course everybody could notice that the situation was far from catastrophic. It has been the result of a labour of love of 2 French men for half of a day. Things were not as good as we expect because the people who went to see the spot concluded that it need just an high pressure cleaning which has just been done by us ! It is true that there is a dark trace but that was done probably by a chemical reaction of the copper wreath. That wreath is absolutely not broken, just shows the work of the 85 winters. Last week , as soon we have received it, quartz was put on the ground and 2 red rose trees for the colour, 2 lavender tree for the scent and their symbol of liberty and one fern to symbolise New Zealand were planted. I am sure that nobody reasonable can complain on that modest work. I sincerely don’t think that insults are justified. We have done that task without wishing thanks or anything else. We have done it for love and also because we feel it was our duty. That was done also for these great words, « Their Name Liveth for Evermore ». This is my last comment and I have decided never again to make any other enquiry or comment on any forum regarding the WW1 and the Memory. That is really very dangerous and I don’t feel it is a fit subject for gossip. Philippe Gorczynski the enquiry put on NZ Forum : N°1 Private WW1 N.Z. Officer's MC grave First, Please excuse my poor English as I am French. Few days ago I have been absolutely astonished to discover in the french civilian cemetery of Cambrai-France- a private WW1 grave of a NZ Officer. It has been erected probably in 1919 after the military cemetery of St Olle, where he was first buried, was reorganized and graves transfered in other places. The father of this officer has decided to do it privately. It was an huge work for that man as it is not a simple grave and he has probably done his best for the memory of his dear son. The father died years ago and due to the distance no relatives of the Officer is able to take care of the grave. Now it is in poor condition in spite that some french people come sometimes to put flowers. I often visit the war cemeteries and monuments but it is the first time I saw a private war grave. It is possible to find some private memorial in fields, woods etc, but never a grave. Because it is privately owned(? if there are relatives)the Commonwealth War Grave Commission is not allowed or appointed to take care of it. It was the choice of the father. However the man and grave location is registered in the CWGC documents. The Souvenir Français of Cambrai (could be compared to a local branch of WFA) has decided to adopted the maintenance of that grave but it could be important to know if any relative of that man is agree with that idea. I have put more details in Soldier Research etc... Philippe Philippe Gorczynski Cambrai France N°2 Abandonned Anzac officer MC war grave WW1 We (Souvenir Francais -Cambrai) are planning to restored the grave of 2nd Lieutnant Donald Gordon McMillan 6th Howitzer Battery-NZ Field Artillery KIA saturday September 28th.which is abandonned!!!?? He served also in Samoa and at Gallipoli We would like to get some information on that brave but forgotten officer. I think that there a regimental history on the NZ artillery. Is someone could find some information on 2nd LieutenantD. McMillan? His citation for the Military Cross?relatives? information? photo? Thank you very much Philippe Gorczynski Cambrai-France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 I have made a slight deletion to the above post as moderator to remove a personal comment about a Forum member. The earlier posting that drew this comment was equally 'over the top' but the member has since apologised and retracted the comment. The Forum is no place for such personal comments. Congratulations to Philippe for the work he and his comrades have undertaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 29 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2003 This is my last comment and I have decided never again to make any other enquiry or comment on any forum regarding the WW1 and the Memory. That is really very dangerous and I don’t feel it is a fit subject for gossip. Very sad to read that, as this thread as clearly shown the quick way something can be resolved and/or explained following its report on an Internet Forum. By normal means this would take months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn_Hammond Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 I echo Simon Bull's and Terry Denham's comments about "Phil G", who I have had the honour of calling my friend for several years. I am also glad that Paul Guthrie has been big enough to apologise for the mistake HE made. There were however other people who haven't apologised or retracted their remarks yet. That is their choice. As for Philippe's decision not to participate in any forum again, that is his prerogative but it is a shame as he has much to contribute to our knowledge of the Cambrai battle in particular and events relating to the 'Old Front Line' in general. The downside of a forum like this is that it's easy to set a hare running in the first place that we (as the keen hounds we are) chase down as fast as we can. Not one of this forum's greatest triumphs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Well after reading Phillipe's post I am REAL glad I retracted and apologized. Of course it's his call to participate but I sure hope he does. It's obvious he would be a valuable member. Thanks for the information Phillippe. Fine work by you and your friends! The earlier post before the retraction has been edited and it notes that the post was later retracted. Sorry Phillippe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 29 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2003 I don't think anyone really felt an malice or anger towards Phillipe, and I am sorry he feels upset about this, but given how quickly Terry was able to mobilise CWGC and find out what the state was, I think some of us wondered why he should report it abandoned (when that word has the same meaning in French). We were not to know that he and Souvenir Francais, who carry out such work all over France with never a thanks from us Brits!, had already worked on it, and a pity he hadn't explained that as a follow up on the ANZAC forum. I still think it a shame he feels he won't contribute to this or any other forum, when they can be so positive and useful, and when he personally has such an interest and knowledge about a vital part of the Western Front. I hope he reconsiders, and those who know him well might urge him to think again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Simon Bull Posted 1 August , 2003 Share Posted 1 August , 2003 Paul Reed suggested that those of us who know Philippe G urge him to re-consider his withdrawal from the Forum. I have e-mailed Philippe with such a request and can I encourage others who know him to act similarly. Philippe must be one of the most knowledgeable people alive in relation to the Battle of Cambrai and he would have a great deal to offer to the Forum. It would be very pleasant to feel that we could welcome him and benefit from his presence. I also feel that active steps to ease the offence which he feels are desirable - he is a man who has done a very great deal to ensure that those who fought at Cambrai (particularly, but not exclusively, in the tanks) are, and will be, remembered. His work on the recovery of the tank ?Deborah? from the battlefield was an outstanding achievement. I would be very sad to think that he should be left feeling offence at the way he was treated by a (broadly) Anglo-Saxon forum. Simon Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 1 August , 2003 Share Posted 1 August , 2003 It is indeed sad and I do not know what else to do. I should have recognized the name in the first place because of Deborah but didn't. I suppose he has read the apologies and chooses to not participate anyway. I do not remember that he did before this all came up. Anyway, I do hope his friends can convince him that what was said was just plain dumb and not malicious. We had no idea and really no way of knowing the picture we saw was made after repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 1 August , 2003 Share Posted 1 August , 2003 I think everyone here has realised that an error was made and due heartfelt apologies made to Phillippe. I can quite understand how upset he must have been but would also urge him to continue his valued participation in this forum. Once again thanks to him and his friends for their work in the Cambrai area. As someone who has embarassed himself in the past by "precipitate posting syndrome" , I think this is again a salutary lesson to us all. The good thing to take from this is that it comes out of the obvious fact that all of us care so passionately about the graves , ground and history that is the Western Front. This unites us all and this incident should therefore rapidly pale into insignificance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wendy mcadam Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 I am the translator of Philippe Gorczynski’s book about the battle of Cambrai, and a friend of his. The restoration of a neglected grave, using his own time and effort, and funded out of his own pocket, is just what I would expect of him. Of course many of your contributors do not know him, but that does not explain the haste with which some of them sought to impugn his motives. I know several people have apologised, but much of the correspondence, while maybe not malicious, was not, either, ‘just plain dumb’.There was the clear implication that Philippe was being dishonest. I am concerned that Paul Reed seems still not to understand that Philippe found a grave hopelessly overgrown, filthy, and damaged. I hope the CWGC will make it clear that the photograph that was posted represented Philippe’s work in progress, unaided by anyone else. The grave has now been lovingly restored, with new plants, and I am sure it will be tended for the rest of Philippe’s life. He is an honourable man and an expert in his field, with a lifelong passion for all that Remembrance means. His innocent question to another site should have been met by some generosity of spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohpal Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 "There are none so blind as those that will not see" 45594 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Now everyone has eaten humble pie I think Phillippe should be commended for the trouble he has taken to restore this grave. Lets face it, if he had not made the effort it is very likely this grave would eventually have been lost. Well done Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Wendy thanks for your contribution. I want to tell you why I think nothing was said malicilously. The picture of the grave appeared and it was apparent the grave was in good condition. Not only was it not apparent that this was after Phillipe had repaired it , it was impossible to ascertain that. Unfortunate, yes, regrettable , yes, hasty, yes, mailcious no. Look at what could have been known at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 I appreciate the apologies and the kind comments following the misunderstanding. The grave is now in a better condition. We have done our best. For me the subject is now closed and it is time to go in other serious matters. Perhaps in the future you may be able to help answer any other questions. Now is the time to let 2nd Lieutenant D. G. McMillan rest in peace. Thanks to everybody. Philippe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohpal Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 It is very pleasing to read that Mr Gorczynski has accepted the apologies and will hopefully be contributing to this forum again. 45594 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 7 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Philippe - I am pleased to read your comments and hope we will see you regularly on the forum. Amicalement, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Simon Bull Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Welcome Philippe - it is good to have you with us. Simon Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now