Paul Reed Posted 20 July , 2003 Share Posted 20 July , 2003 Thanks to a link on one of the threads in this part of the forum, I recently discovered the excellent ANZAC forum. There is a post on there in which Philippe Gorczynski of Cambrai claims the grave of 2nd Lieutnant Donald Gordon McMillan 6th Howitzer Battery-NZ Field Artillery KIA September 28th 1918 is 'abandoned' and in need of renovation, and CWGC will not accept responsibility for it. Full details on this thread: http://com2.akheva.com/banzacresearch.fsol...andinterest.t30 2/Lt McMillan is buried in the Porte de Paris Cemetery, Cambrai. His details on the CWGC database is at: http://www.cwgc.org/search/detailed.asp?ca...casualty=566869 Any one got any comments on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 20 July , 2003 Share Posted 20 July , 2003 Paul OK - I've read the thread you highlighted. My take on what it is saying (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the grave is marked but not with a CWGC headstone. It doesn't really back up that it has been abandoned by the CWGC. I would hope it is simply a case of the grave being overlooked. I think the CWGC (for all the stick they get - some of it justified) do a brilliant job & I would like to see some sort of response from them before passing judgement. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 20 July , 2003 Share Posted 20 July , 2003 Silent Cities gives 1 NZ burial for this cemetery so presumably this is the gentleman in question and presumably he is within the confines of the cemetery so this is rather puzzling as I cannot believe his grave has been abandoned. Would like to know more of the detail of this, there is always two sides to a story. Perhaps Terry can throw some light on this matter.? Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 20 July , 2003 Share Posted 20 July , 2003 If the grave is marked by a private marker, then the grave will be privately owned and not CWGC's responsibility. The maintenance is the legal responsibility of the grave owner and CWGC is not permitted to intervene. These cases are rare abroad but common in the home Commonwealth countries where private markers and graves were permitted if the n-o-k so wished. The CWGC site confirms that this is a privately owned grave. CWGC's sole responsibility will be to ensure that the name is included on their database. However, they will also inspect the memorial periodically to ensure that the name is still readable. If it is, then their legal responsibility ends and they can do no more. Only the legibility of the name is concerned her and not the general state of the grave. If the grave has been abandoned, it has been abandoned by the legal owners. If the private memorial was destroyed and the name unreadable, then CWGC would seek permission from the owners and/or the cemetery authorities to erect a standard stone but they cannot do this if the name is still legible (or if the authorities/owners refuse permission). They are the authority in this case and so the memorial name must still be legible. It is a common mistaken belief that CWGC is resonsible for every war grave and this is not so. There are many private graves which fall outside their remit. Another case of misunderstanding CWGC's powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 20 July , 2003 Share Posted 20 July , 2003 Terry, This is the first time I have seen "privately owned grave" on a CWGC search. Where this is the case is it always stated.? Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 20 July , 2003 Share Posted 20 July , 2003 Bob This is certainly not the norm or you would have seen thousands of them (in UK etc). I have never seen such a note before either. The grave was brought in at a late stage (from the notes) presumably at the request of the n-o-k. There must have been some arrangement at the time. I'll see what I can find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 20 July , 2003 Share Posted 20 July , 2003 This is the military plot in Porte de Paris cemetery. It is just behind Mr Gorczinski's excellent Hotel Beatus in Cambrai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 20 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 20 July , 2003 Thanks for all the responses so far - what Terry has said is what I thought would be the case here, but it is nice to have it confirmed. Given the status of this grave, I wonder if the WFA might release some money to renovate it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 21 July , 2003 Share Posted 21 July , 2003 Terry, Yes it will be interesting to see what you come up with. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 July , 2003 Share Posted 21 July , 2003 Bob I was informed by CWGC this morning that the situation is exactly as I described above - a private grave outside their remit. However, in accordance with their procedures, they have today asked their French office to investigate the condition of this memorial and to report back on the matter. I'll let you know what I hear in due course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 21 July , 2003 Share Posted 21 July , 2003 Terry, As you say arrangements will have been made at the time by NOK. Presumably they will have long since passed on. If this is the case is there a precedent for CWGC to adopt and take over the care.? Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 July , 2003 Share Posted 21 July , 2003 Bob Yes, there have been cases of CWGC accepting responsibility but each case would be dealt with on its merits. In the UK, this usually means erecting a CWGC pattern headstone and maintaining that. However, there are some instances in F&F of them adopting existing private headstones - presumably with the permission of all concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 21 July , 2003 Share Posted 21 July , 2003 Terry, You have just answered my next question which was going to be what sort of stone would be used if CWGC did take over the care. It will be interesting to see the outcome of this. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 July , 2003 Share Posted 21 July , 2003 Bob CWGC use one of the standard pattern in the UK if they obtain permission to add one to a private grave & memorial that has fallen into disrepair - rather than repair/replace the private stonework. This is not necessarily the case with the few taken over abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 21 July , 2003 Share Posted 21 July , 2003 Terry, Thanks for that info. Please keep us posted on any developments. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham-McAdam Posted 21 July , 2003 Share Posted 21 July , 2003 If nobody else does, I'll post a photo of it in a couple of weeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 July , 2003 Share Posted 21 July , 2003 Latest report from CWGC as of ten minutes ago. The Head Gardner of the Cambrai area has reported that the grave (as of last week) is in 'satisfactory condition'. The grave is not located in the CWGC war grave plot and is private. Its location was presumably at the request of the n-o-k when the casualty was moved to this cemetery. It is not therefore surrounded by the usual plantings etc. To be certain, today CWGC have asked their Works Manager to inspect the grave and to report back on its condition in detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 22 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2003 Thanks for looking into this Terry - nice to know this has been a 'false alarm' to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 I have just heard back from CWGC who asked their Works Manager to look at this grave. He has reported back that the stonework is sound and there is only a little damage to the metal wreath. However, despite having no official responsibility for this private grave, their Cambrai Area Head Gardener has said that he will have the headstone washed and will plant some flowers in the Autumn. A photo of the grave as of yesterday is below - supplied by CWGC. Personally, I think that the staff of CWGC ought to be congratulated here for their quick response to what looks like an exagerated statement of the grave being 'abandoned'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 Close up of inscription Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 23 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2003 Heartily agree that CWGC should be congratulated on this - it is quite obvious that this stone is in good condition and far from being 'abandoned' - and not even under threat! One can only wonder at the motives for reporting it as such. Good on you, as well, for looking into it so promptly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 Terry, Thanks for the update and photos. Agree it seems to have been an "exaggerated claim" to what end I can't imagine. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 Isure agree with you all, CWGC is to be commended and this bird who reported this as abandoned... is, to be kind, mistaken but I am not prepared to be kind, it's false and obviously so, what could be the motive? This post was retracted and an apology made, see below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 July , 2003 Share Posted 24 July , 2003 Crikey, you're getting a bit paranoid about motives. It seems obvious to me that the originator of this discussion and CWGC action does not have English as his first language. Perhaps he erred in the selection of the word 'abandoned'. Maybe he meant to say 'forgotten' or 'seldom visited'. Give the guy some credit for his interest and enthusiasm. What damage would he have done anyway? Plant a few flowers? Clean the stone? Exactly what the CWGC are now going to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aber Posted 24 July , 2003 Share Posted 24 July , 2003 GHOSKEN Your comments are both appropriate and positive and I hope appreciated by Philippe. It appears that the recent comments by others on the GWD forum were made without reading Philippe's original post on the ANZAC forum. See Paul Reeds original post at the beginning of this thread, or go to the ANZAC Research forum for posts from Philippe: ANZAC Research I think we should support and not critise the local historical committees that are willing to spend the time to assist in maintaining private graves outside the CWGC responsibility. Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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