Customs impounding relics?

[chrisharley9]

Where were you trained and who by? It is not enough to be "told". You need the degree of expert, professional knowledge necessary to examine the item and decide this for yourself beyond any doubt in each case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was taught there was only 1 safe place to view unexploded munitions - from about 2 miles away!!!!!!!

All The Best

Chris

[the gunners dream]

Well said angie999!

'Where were you trained and who by? It is not enough to be "told". You need the degree of expert, professional knowledge necessary to examine the item and decide this for yourself beyond any doubt in each case.'

Giles

All Iam saying to people is tread carefully. There is legislation coming in, even as we speak,that backs up what I have just said regarding the sale and possession of deactivated weaons etc that will make collecting this sort of stuff illegal and possession of it in a public place, i.e. a port could lead to arrest and prosecution.

I have to say that this part of WWI interest is reckless and to collect this stuff is dangerous. And for anyone to say that buying this stuff is quite normal when there is the risk that someone could blow themselves up is a dangerous route to take for people who are not in the know. This, I believe leads to people looking for it themselves.

When I take people on tours I make it quite clear that this is a no no and should not be messed with. mI have literally seen someone pick up a live stick grenade and hit it on the side of a wall. I will not tell you what my response was to that!

The bottom line as many have said on this thread is DON'T TOUCH THE STUFF!

[Max Poilu]

Giles

All Iam saying to people is tread carefully. There is legislation coming in, even as we speak,that backs up what I have just said regarding the sale and possession of deactivated weaons etc that will make collecting this sort of stuff illegal and possession of it in a public place, i.e. a port could lead to arrest and prosecution.

I have to say that this part of WWI interest is reckless and to collect this stuff is dangerous. And for anyone to say that buying this stuff is quite normal when there is the risk that someone could blow themselves up is a dangerous route to take for people who are not in the know. This, I believe leads to people looking for it themselves.

When I take people on tours I make it quite clear that this is a no no and should not be messed with. mI have literally seen someone pick up a live stick grenade and hit it on the side of a wall. I will not tell you what my response was to that!

Please read carefully what I have said. You keep using ambiguous terms like 'this stuff' which confuses people. I am well aware of the upcoming criminal justice bill and talk to many people to whom it will have an impact. We are not allowed to discuss political topics in this place but the whole purpose of introducing the law and the likely effects of it on innocent people and conversely on the criminal fraternity can be found on hundreds of places across the net. It has been discussed here and in many other places specifically with regard to re-enactors, historical collectors, air-weapon target shooters, airsoft users etc.

You are a serving policeman? You must know that the law currently forbids the carrying of an immitaton weapon of any kind in public, this is not part of the new law. The law is purely being reviewed in respect of firearms. The firearms consultation has taken ages and is still not finalised.

Specifically, the difference with regard to de-activated weapons that are currently legal is that they will not in all likelyhood (the law is still being discussed before going to parliment) be able to be imported, created, retailed or sold between individuals in the future. Those currently in possesion will not be licensed and will not be able to be sold on, they will however be able to be retained legally. As far as I understand it there is no mention whatsover with regard to ordinance - it is purely a firearms review.

Bruce,

It is not illegal to own inert ordinance or de-activated weapons as discussed above. Please read carefully the full text posted by myself and others. It is very clear. Proof house de-activated guns and inert ordinance is legal. Live is not.

I really think we are going round in circles! All the points have been covered by various posts already!

If anyone want to see the Government's official paper for the firearms review please see here:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs3/controls_on_firearms.pdf

And I keep on saying:

Needless to say if you cannot be 100% sure that what you bring back (or buy) is 100% inert and legal then leave well alone. If you are not expert enough to know then again, leave well alone.

[the gunners dream]

I agree with you Giles that this is just going to go on. I still stand by what I say, so here is the list of section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968.

Interpret it how you will.

Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 creates the following two lists of weapons and ammunition which are prohibited and therefore referred to as 'prohibited weapons' or 'prohibited ammunition'.

The first list (subject to the offence under section 5(1)) itemises the following weapons and ammunition, which cannot be possessed without the written authority of the Defence Council. A prohibited weapon also includes those which are stripped-down weapon (R v Pannell [1982] Crim LR 752, [1982] LS Gaz R 1257, CA).

5(1) a Any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeated pressure of the trigger;

Notes : This is a simple objective test. If, in the hands of an experienced user, the weapon is capable of discharging 2 or more missiles with a single squeeze of the trigger, then it is a prohibited weapon. The intentions of the designer are not relevant (R v Law 1999).

5(1) a, b Any self loading or pump action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges;

5(1)(aba) Any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon, a muzzle loading gun or a firearm designed as signalling apparatus ;

NOTE - The offence under section 5(1)(aba) above is the ban on handguns, which came into force on 1st February 1998, with a one month 'handing in' period for small calibre weapons. Also, see section 5(1)(ac) below:

5(1)(a,c) Any self loading or pump action smooth-bore gun which is not an air weapon or chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches in length or is less than 40 inches in length overall ;

IMPORTANT - For the purposes of sections 5(1)(aba) and 5(1)(ac) above, any detachable, folding, retractable or similar butt-stock is to be DISREGARDED when measuring the length of the weapon.

5(1)(a,d) Any smooth bore revolver gun other than one which is chambered for 9mm rim-fire cartridges or a muzzle-loading gun;

5(1)(ae) Any rocket launcher, or any mortar, for projecting a stabilised missile, other than a launcher or mortar designed for line-throwing or pyrotechnic purposes as a signalling apparatus;

5(1)(a,f) Any air rifle, air gun or air pistol which uses, or is designed or adapted for use with, a self-contained gas cartridge system - IMPORTANT: see Notes (iii) below regarding individuals already holding the weapons referred to in this subsection at the time this provision was introduced;

5(1) b Any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing;

Notes :

(i) Do not confuse the unlawful discharge of a gas which is being used as a weapon, e.g. C.S. gas, with compressed carbon dioxide which can be used to propel a pellet from an air gun.

(ii) 'Other thing' includes electrical devices such as cattle prods, but is not thought to include an instrument such as an Auto Taser.

(iii) 5(1)(a,f) came into force on the 20th January 2004. But there is an exception for anyone who has possession of one at the time (except dealers). They then have until the 30th April 2004 to apply for a firearms certificate in relation to the weapon. There are then special provisions (see below) which create a permanent exception for those individuals so they can lawfully continue to hold the weapons. Obviously, after the 20th January 2004, no one else will be able to get hold of the weapons in the normal course of events.

5(1)© Any cartridge with a bullet designed to explode on or immediately before impact, any ammunition containing or designed or adapted to contain any such noxious thing as is mentioned in para b above and, if capable of being used with a firearm of any description, any grenade, bomb (or other like missile), or rocket or shell designed to explode as aforesaid.

Then follows the second list (subject to the offence in section 5(1A) which cannot be possessed without the authority of the Secretary of State:

5(1A)(a) Any firearm which is disguised as another object;

5(1A) b Any rocket or ammunition not falling within paragraph © of subsection (1) of this section which consists in or incorporates a missile designed to explode on or immediately before impact and is for military use;

5(1A)© Any launcher or other projecting apparatus not falling within paragraph (ae) of that subsection which is designed to be used with any rocket or ammunition falling within paragraph b above or with ammunition which would fall within that paragraph but for its being ammunition falling within paragraph © of that subsection;

5(1A)(d) Any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed so that a substance contained in the missile will ignite on or immediately before impact;

5(1A)(e) Any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed, on account of its having a jacket and hard-core, to penetrate armour plating, armour screening or body armour;

5(1A)(f) Any ammunition which incorporates a missile designed or adapted to expand on impact (dum-dum type ammunition).

5(1A)(g) Anything which is designed to be projected as a missile from any weapon and is designed to be, or has been, incorporated in -

(i) any ammunition falling within any of the preceding paragraphs; OR

(ii) any ammunition which would fall within any of those paragraphs but for its being specified in subsection (1) of this section.

5(7) For the purposes of this section and section 5A of this Act -

(a) any rocket or ammunition which is designed to be capable of being used with a military weapon shall be taken to be for military use;

b references to a missile designed so that a substance contained in the missile will ignite on or immediately before impact include references to any missile containing a substance that ignites on exposure to air; AND

(c ) references to a missile's expanding on impact include references to its deforming in any predictable manner on or immediately after impact .

(Section 5A is dealt with in another document, click here for more)

NOTE:

See also general prohibited weapon exemptions, extra handgun exemptions and firearm/shotgun certificate exemptions.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Lawful possession of compressed gas air weapons at the time 5(1)(af) above came fully into force

If a person lawfully has in his possession an air rifle, air gun or air pistol of the kind described in section 5(1)(af) above -

(a) section 5(1) shall not prevent the person's continued possession of the air rifle, air gun or air pistol,

(b ) section 1 shall apply, and

(c ) a chief officer of police may not refuse to grant or renew, and may not revoke or partially revoke, a firearm certificate under Part II of that Act on the ground that the person does not have a good reason for having the air rifle, air gun or air pistol in his possession.

But (a ) to © shall not apply to possession in the circumstances described in section 8 (authorised dealing).

Notes :Section 1(1)(a) of the Firearms Act 1968 shall not apply to a person who has in his possession any air rifle, air gun or air pistol which uses, or is designed or adapted for use with, a self-contained gas cartridge system where he has applied before 30th April 2004 for a firearm certificate under Part 2 of that Act and either that application is still being processed or any appeal in respect of it has not been determined.

Steve Smith

[Max Poilu]

From the Home Office:

Deactivated firearms. These are guns which have

been modified in such a way that they cannot

reasonably operate as firearms. In this country,

if a gun is certified as deactivated by one of the

two Proof Houses it is no longer regarded as a

“firearm”. Home Office deactivation standards

date from 1995 and replaced earlier, less

stringent, 1988 standards. They are not

retrospective and guns that were certified under

the earlier standard are still regarded as

deactivated firearms in law. Deactivated

firearms are used for display purposes, in film

and theatre work and by historical re-enactors.

The underlined section is the important part. As a de-activated firearm is no longer classified as a firearm it has nothing to do with section 5. The law is clear. There is no interpretation to be made. FAC officers are incredibly stringent in their application of the law and any sensible dealer knows fully well what is and what is not legal.

A de-activated Bren Gun as sold at Beltring is not a firearm and does not require a FAC. However, as part of the de-activation process involves work to the (removable) barrel if one was to own a standard un-modified Bren barrel that would be a criminal act as a standard Bren barrel itself is a Section 5 item!

It is the same with ammunition, if you own one live round of 9mm or a live .303 round you are breaking the law. A round with the propellant removed and the primer 'oiled' or removed is no longer considered a live round and can be legally owned by anyone. Again, as it is an inert round Section 5 does not apply.

The law is crystal clear and there is no ambiguity in the law. Once again live/working is one thing inert/de-activated is absolutely another. One is illegal one is not.

I really don't wish to sound like some great defender of collectors! (For the record I own one deac' - as many do here - a proof house certificated deactivated WW1 SMLE). It is just important that those who wish to collect items fully understand what is legal and what is not. If in doubt best thing is to visit your main police station and ask for a chat with the area FAC officer. They are usually quite willing to freely advise.

[the gunners dream]

I know I said I'd leave it, but one more thing.

I'm not trying to sound like some copper who goes round arresting people for this kind of thing all the time.

I respect your views Giles and I do also understand that there are people out there who collect all kinds of WWI items.

But, on a daily basis sometimes, I have to deal with people carrying weapons of all sorts, from small knives to replica weapons, to ammunition to things that they might pick up off the beach (which have turned out to be fuses and grenades from WWII). The list is endless. We do not know at the time whether the thing is deactivated etc. And the onus would be on the person to prove that it's not going to harm you or others.

When we deal with things like this we try to have a modicum of common sense and I am only trying to show people out there that there is the possibility of arrest/proscecution if you do something that does not fall into the remit that you have listed.

Ultimately we are coming across this thing on a more regular basis and that not only puts me and my colleagues at risk, but people like you lot.

[Max Poilu]

Steve,

Well said. I am in agreement with probably far more of what you have said in all your posts than it may appear so. Without going into detail I have my own experiences to back up what you say. It is very important that collectors understand the finer points of the law. You cannot slightly break the law - either you do or you don't! I am a great supporter of our police who like our armed forces do an incredible job under intense pressure from all sides and rarely if ever get any credit, usually quite the opposite from a cynical media. Current events in London are showing what a difficult task you face. You deserve everyone's support in all you do.

PS - why 'the gunners dream' - nothing to do with Arsenal is it (he said with his Spurs hat on...)

Best wishes,

Giles

[the gunners dream]

The Gunners Dream comes from a song by Pink Floyd.

It's about a soldier who hears something terrible on a radio net and finds it difficult to live with.

There is a lovely line:

'In the corner of some foreign field, the gunner sleeps tonight.

What's done is done,

We cannot write off his final scene,

Take heed of the dream.'

It's written with a lot of passion by Roger Walters who lost his father in WWII.

He has also written a song called When the Tigers Broke Free. This song has the ability to send shivers up my spine.

It was just before dawn

One miserable morning in black 'forty four.

When the forward commander

Was told to sit tight

When he asked that his men be withdrawn.

And the Generals gave thanks

As the other ranks held back

The enemy tanks for a while.

And the Anzio bridgehead

Was held for the price

Of a few hundred ordinary lives.

And old King George

Sent Mother a note

When he heard that father was gone.

It was, I recall,

In the form of a scroll,

With gold leaf and all.

And I found it one day

In a drawer of old photographs, hidden away.

And my eyes still grow damp to remember

His Majesty signed

With his own rubber stamp.

It was dark all around.

There was frost in the ground

When the tigers broke free.

And no one survived

From the Royal Fusiliers Company C.

They were all left behind,

Most of them dead,

The rest of them dying.

And that's how the High Command

Took my daddy from me.

They're both based on WWII, but you can equate the lyrics of both to WWI too. Sorry if this has digressed from the post but I wanted to share the song with you all.

Steve Smith

[tbgbc]

hi all ive joined this forum just to let you know what happened to me on friday 7th of september 2012.

id spent 6 days roaming the battlefields , tips, fairs and gardens for relics, and was due to drive home on the 8th with all my bit and pieces, id done what i wanted to do so decided to come home a day early, all was well until i went through customs and was pulled over for a check, i chatted to the official who then asked if she could see in my boot, on opening i said what i had been doing in the somme and this is my collection of relics which i had found , bought and been given. she called over a guy who was into militaria who then asked me to step away from the car and the police were called who then called in the local bomb squad.

a couple of hours later i was arrested and spent a few hours in the cells and eventually bailed 8 hours later.

what i had in my boot was 6 lee enfield rifles in typical relic condition covered in rust and mud, 5 fuse heads and over bit and piece like brass shells and 303 rounds , (two live).

to be honest i was gob smacked to be told the lee enfields contained live rounds still in the magazines and breech and that the fuzes could still be live,

i didnt even think about the possibilities of live round being in the rifles, and i didnt know that the fuzes could contain explosives, i thought once they had been fired they were safe, i just simply forgot i had the two live rounds as i was going to pull the rounds apart and dispose of the explosives safely.

so now im on bail until january not know what i could get or what is going to happen, i hope they realise im just a collector and nothing more and give me a caution.

because the stuff i had was openly on sell in places such as museums i.e. albert museum and street fairs etc etc i automatically thought it was legal.not so im afraid.

i must say i was treated really well by all concerned , not keen on the strip search and the hand cuffs mind you.

[Kath]

Thanks for coming on the Forum and sharing this.

Kath.

[centurion]

Just returned from a Somme trip using the Tunnel. No appearance of customs whatsoever. However just imagine a detonator in someone's boot going off and igniting the fuel tank during the shuttle passage. Yes I know it hasn't happened but it could.

[TonyE]

I am sorry to sound harsh, but you have no-one to blame but yourself. I realise that to you a relic rifle is just a heap of rust, but technically it is still a Section 1 firearm. I accept that it found with it in the UK you would probably not be prosecuted (that is not certain though) but simply have it confiscated, but to try to bring six relic rifles through customs undeclared is just asking for trouble.

Also, although the preceding posts are now over seven years old I would like to make one point. Whilst wholeheartedly agreeing with gunners dream's warnings about the dangers of picking up ordnance and the legal position regarding ammunition I disagree with him on one detail.

He states that possesion of a telescopic sight is illegal as it is part of a firearm. For an item to be subject to the Firearms Act it has to be a component part, the definition of this being that it must be a pressure bearing part. A barrel, receiver, bolt etc. are all pressure bearing and therefore require a suitable variation on a Firearms Certificate. A magazine, butt or indeed a telescopic sight are not and are therefore not subject to the Act.

...but I approve of his choice of music!

Regards

TonyE

[tbgbc]

i now know it is illegal to import this type of thing, to me it wasnt a usable item just a lump of rust and mud, i had no intention of cleaning them let alone trying to get them usable.

i agree i have no one to blame but myself, maybe i should have looked into it a bit more, i dont understand why it can be bought openly here and in france but it is illegal to bring it over the border, i must have come across the border at some stage .

the amount of stuff being brought in must be mind blowing , i was unlucky but not everyone is .

imagine bringing home some of the live stuff half buried in the some the forests, it must have happened.

ive got photos of about eight large live shells i saw including a live mills grenade in the field in front of hawthorn ridge crater , it really is plentiful over there. scarey stuff if got into the wrong hands.

[centurion]

On Thursday I was visiting High Wood Cemetery. Just along the road a local farmer was harrowing the field. When I got back in my car and began to proceed down the road I noticed that the farmer was gone but he had left standing point upwards beside the road an intact shell which his harrowing had turned up. Now if I was a brainless souvenir hunter I could have popped it in the boot and gone on my way. However I did recognise that the intention of it's maker was for it to explode and although landing at the end of its flight and being unearthed by a harrow had failed to make it do so it still retained it's original purpose and might still full fill it. I drove on by. I passed along that road again the following day and it was gone so either someone whose job it was (and presumably knew what they were doing) had retrieved it or some brainless souvenir hunter had bagged it.

[TonyE]

.......i dont understand why it can be bought openly here and in france but it is illegal to bring it over the border,

I suspect anyone trying to sell relic firearms in the UK "openly" without a Proof House deactivation certificate.would soon be answering questions with their local constabulary.

Regards

TonyE

[tbgbc]

its the militaria fairs i was on about, maybe cos they aren't about long enough thats the reason they get away with it, also there are countless websites selling relic weapons , grenades and shells including ebay,

i know ebay will kick off auctions if they deem them not right but some stuff still gets through.

whichever way you look at it its still illegal to import which is what i did. so my fault entirely allbeit unknowlingly .

[Guest exuser1]

In reference to the above the sale of relic Great War items such as Enfields ect is prevelent at many UK militaria fairs , and the War and Peace show has 100s for sale all brought over from europe , this show is policed to a very high standard by Kent Police Fire Arms Unit and Kent Tradeing standards and no relic weapon in my knowldge has been seized in 10 years ? and the show is full of 1000s of battlefield clearence items from not only Great War but also WW2 including items recoverd from Lybia !

[healdav]

QUOTE (Giles Poilu @ Jul 23 2005, 08:01 PM)

Sorry, but it is certainly not illegal to own an inert shell fuze or many other former components of ordinance.

I am EXTREMELY unwilling to disagree with you. I generally accept your posts as the definitive answer. I think you are missing the point. At the present time, any official, police, customs, emigration or whatever is going to react very badly to any hint that a person coming into the country is carrying what might be an explosive device. These are not normal circumstances and the finer points of law are not going to be observed .

Nice to know that in Britain (let alone elsewhere) the law has been pushed to one side in the current hysteria. Lock 'em up. "Verdict first, trial later".

Next thing will be someone arrested for having a bag of fertiliser. The IRA were dab hands at making bombs with it (and no one got too excited about it then, when bombs were being lobbed around the streets).

[Guest exuser1]

Its even difficult takeing a empty van through the tunnel , i had to stand for 10 mins whilst two of our finest border control checked my White Transit van for a secret compartment ! i said you dont think the suspension is a bit high as its empty do you ? they both looked at one another went very red and said please get in your vehicle and leave , i always smile when pulled to one side open up the van and the comment is "Oh its empty !" talk about stateing the obvious ?

[robins2]

FuseeGBn80.jpg

if anyone wants to know the composition of a fuze please go to: www.passioncompassion1418.com, will probably answer a lot of questions

a great web site with lots of info

regards

Bob R.

[healdav]

Its even difficult takeing a empty van through the tunnel , i had to stand for 10 mins whilst two of our finest border control checked my White Transit van for a secret compartment ! i said you dont think the suspension is a bit high as its empty do you ? they both looked at one another went very red and said please get in your vehicle and leave , i always smile when pulled to one side open up the van and the comment is "Oh its empty !" talk about stateing the obvious ?

I've had this as well, and a friend of mine has been pulled over so often he complained and got a certificate of some sort exempting him! Joke is he works on weapons control.

[centurion]

Next thing will be someone arrested for having a bag of fertiliser. The IRA were dab hands at making bombs with it (and no one got too excited about it then, when bombs were being lobbed around the streets).

When were fertilizer bombs " lobbed around the streets" exactly? Such bombs were usually placed in vehicles or rude IEDs. As one who worked a good deal in oil and gas related companies where fertilizer was made I can tell you that there was a lot of behind the scenes concern and control over how it was stored and to whom sold and in what quantity.

Take a look at some recent trials of would be terrorists and you'll see charges relating to fertilizer.

[IRC Kevin]

When were fertilizer bombs " lobbed around the streets" exactly? Such bombs were usually placed in vehicles or rude IEDs. As one who worked a good deal in oil and gas related companies where fertilizer was made I can tell you that there was a lot of behind the scenes concern and control over how it was stored and to whom sold and in what quantity.

Take a look at some recent trials of would be terrorists and you'll see charges relating to fertilizer.

The percentage of nitrate legally allowed in fertilizer was reduced for this very reason, if I remember rightly to below 25%. In the 70's I spent many an hour checking fertilizer bags in the isolated farms of South Armagh for the legality (or not) of their fertilizer stores. Coop Mix may be crude, but having seen first hand the effects of 800 lbs of this detonated in a culvert under a road and lost two comrades to a much smaller one, it does not lack effectiveness.

[Iain]

having already brought home some shrapnel and empty cartridge case`s ( both german) I will now think twice before thinking of bringing back the British and French cartridges I was hoping to bring back from my next trip.

[centurion]

Fertilizer bombs were effectively binary weapons fertilizer (nitrate) being one element. Both elements need to be present before you get a bang. Parts of the Australian mining industry use this as a safety feature using what is effectively fertilizer with a liquid 2nd element which is not pumped in until just before detonation. ICI's Teeside refinery used to make fertilizer, the bagging plant had three types of sack a Premium brand (more expensive), ordinary fertilizer, explosive (for delivery to Australia). The contents of all three were identical!