Death of Kitchener

[David_Underdown]

The liturgy of St John Chrysostom (golden-tongued I think is the meaning) is the Orthodox Great Liturgy, basically equivalent to the Mass/Eucharist of the Western churches, so I doubt it wad the whole thing

[MichaelBully]

Hi David, yes doing a websearch just now indicated that ! The text whole text would have taken a long time to sing.

Going back to John Pollock , he mentions

"The Dead March was played, and the choir then sang The liturgy of St John Chrysostom, to the Kieff Chant......."

Searching on You Tube, it seems that both Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky put some of the text to music , and this lasts a few minutes. I imagine that it was such an extract that was performed at Lord of Kitchener's memorial service.

The liturgy of St John Chrysostom (golden-tongued I think is the meaning) is the Orthodox Great Liturgy, basically equivalent to the Mass/Eucharist of the Western churches, so I doubt it wad the whole thing

[MichaelBully]

Managed to get hold of Donald McCornick's 'The Mystery of Lord Kitchener's Death' from 1959. Fascinating reading so far. Quite an extensive and fairly critical survey of all the different concerns with regard to the 'official' version of the HMS Hampshire sinking. Worth obtaining, though am curious to see how far the further disclosure of records in the public domain impacts on the line taken by the author.

[Andrew Hesketh]

It's great when an ancient thread is revived and has new life breathed into it. Facinating reading.

[MichaelBully]

Hello Andrew, I just realised that you started this thread in 2003, but thank you for instigating an intriguing discussion.

I have got very interested in the circumstances surrounding Lord Kitchener's death, and all the conspiracy theories that developed. So far I have not found the conspiracy theories very convincing in respect of the HMS Hampshire being deliberately sabotaged but I'll read what I can . Other theories, such as the idea that news of the Russian trip had leaked out are possible, though do not explain how the course the ship was taking could have been known to the enemy in advance. Another possibility is that some accident happened on board the HMS Hampshire which was covered up.

It's great when an ancient thread is revived and has new life breathed into it. Facinating reading.

[truthergw]

The potential for yarn spinning in a sinking like this, is almost infinite. The press of the time had a field day and it was an editor's favourite for decades afterwards. The facts are fairly well known now but tend to be on the mundane side.

[MichaelBully]

Yes the power of the mass circulation newspapers certainly helped to stimulate the subject and there's the obvious paradox of some conspiracy theorists declaring that Lord Kitchener was still alive and others stating that he was murdered as a result of some sinister plot- involving .....well anyone the proponents disapproved of, ranging from Irish Republicans through to Mrs. Asquith.

Broadly speaking the Great War saw the mass of the population being mobilised and such conspiracy theories show the opinions and anxieties of the time so worth a study.

To the question of whether there was anything more to the official version of what happened, I am prepared to look at all perspectives, and that of course includes the opinion that the HMS Hampshire was sunk by a German mine, that few men could survive the storm and the very cold sea temperatures once the ship started sinking, a tragic loss of life , and perhaps there is no more to be said than to remember those who died and what their families must have gone through.

The potential for yarn spinning in a sinking like this, is almost infinite. The press of the time had a field day and it was an editor's favourite for decades afterwards. The facts are fairly well known now but tend to be on the mundane side.

[truthergw]

The Hampshire was sunk by a mine laid on a known day by an identified U-Boot. At the time, the sinking could have been by mine or torpedo but that was cleared up. A couple of dozen survivors was miracle enough. They testified to a large explosion and a rapid sinking. None of the main biographies suggest any mystery. Conspiracies arose in later years when hacks were in need of a few quid.

[MichaelBully]

Tom, there were twelve known survivors, rather than a 'couple of dozen survivors'.

With regard to the 'Kitchener still being alive' stance:

Having a look at the Mystery of Lord Kitchener's Death' by Donald McCormck ,the writer claims that rumours were appearing fairly quickly that Lord Kitchener had survived -with him being sighted in "Cario, Cyprus, Rome and Washington."

This writer also maintains that 'The Times' of 7th June 1916 raised the contention that Kitchener's route had been conveyed to the enemy.

Lord Kitchener's sister Frances Parker was quoted in 1917 as not accepting her brother's death.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20B1FFE3B5F157A93C5AB178CD85F438185F9 ( Sue Light kindly directed me to this link)

Donald McCormick's assertion -that there were people already in 1916 not accepting Kitchener's death, especially as the body had not been found, seems to have been accepted by more recent biographers such as Geroge H. Cassar, and Philip Warner.

Yes, it would be interesting to trace the origin of the first 'Kitchener was murdered' theories, whether these were circulating during the Great War itself or were devised to sell newspapers in the 1920's.

Just speculating, but the notion of Lord Kitchener still being alive would probably reduce after the Armistice.

The Hampshire was sunk by a mine laid on a known day by an identified U-Boot. At the time, the sinking could have been by mine or torpedo but that was cleared up. A couple of dozen survivors was miracle enough. They testified to a large explosion and a rapid sinking. None of the main biographies suggest any mystery. Conspiracies arose in later years when hacks were in need of a few quid.

[truthergw]

Tom, there were twelve known survivors, rather than a 'couple of dozen survivors'.

With regard to the 'Kitchener still being alive' stance:

Having a look at the Mystery of Lord Kitchener's Death' by Donald McCormck ,the writer claims that rumours were appearing fairly quickly that Lord Kitchener had survived -with him being sighted in "Cario, Cyprus, Rome and Washington."

This writer also maintains that 'The Times' of 7th June 1916 raised the contention that Kitchener's route had been conveyed to the enemy.

Lord Kitchener's sister Frances Parker was quoted in 1917 as not accepting her brother's death.

http://query.nytimes...78CD85F438185F9 ( Sue Light kindly directed me to this link)

Donald McCormick's assertion -that there were people already in 1916 not accepting Kitchener's death, especially as the body had not been found, seems to have been accepted by more recent biographers such as Geroge H. Cassar, and Philip Warner.

Yes, it would be interesting to trace the origin of the first 'Kitchener was murdered' theories, whether these were circulating during the Great War itself or were devised to sell newspapers in the 1920's.

Just speculating, but the notion of Lord Kitchener still being alive would probably reduce after the Armistice.

I concede that a couple of dozen was an overestimate. I ought to have fetched a book to confirm. Probably not one by P. Warner, who is rather less than reliable. If somebody is desperate to see a mystery, then a mystery he will see. I tend to be wary of keeping a mind so open that all the facts fall through. This idea that somebody wrote it, so there must be something in it is one of the stranger notions that surfaces from time to time on the forum. I class the suggestion that there was ever a mystery about Lord Kitchener's fate with lady snipers, crucified Canucks, bayonetted babies, chained machine gunners et al. If you are in the market, can I offer you the fact, well known to every 1950s schoolboy in Dundee, that Churchill owned the factory which made the machineguns used by the Turks at Gallipoli? Not a lot of people seem to know that now.

[MichaelBully]

When in Inverness recently, I treated myself to 'Field-Marshall Earl Kitchener of Karthoum, M.G -A Tribute to his Memory' by Nankinverba, C.I , Maharani of Bhavnagar, 1916.

The inroduction by the Right honourable Lord Reay,

"I have great pleasure in inviting all friends and admirers of the late Field-Marshal Earl Kitchener to read this touching tribute to his memory by Her Highness the Maharani of Bhavnagar.

The fine character of the late Field-Marshal appealed ot the King Emperor's Indian as well to this British subjects.

He wield a magic wand by which he created a large army in a short space of time. It is an unparalleled feat in the annals of the the world.

This expression of sympathy from the Maharini of one of the most important States in Kattiwad will find an echo in the West, as whoing that India shares in the joys and sorrows of the British Empire"

Interesting to read how highly Kitchener was acclaimed in this pro-British Indian source.

Regards

Michael Bully

[Guest]

Interesting piece here

Mike

[hazelclark]

Interesting piece here

Mike

Sounds plausible enough to me! But we will never know for sure. At least it still blames the Germans which makes it a but more believable.

H.C.

H.C.

[MichaelBully]

[

That's excellent Mike- thanks for the link. I had not heard of Frau Boecker and Frau Ritz ! The problem is that as they are faked names, it's impossible to check whether Frau Boecker 's husband was killed in action at the Dardanelles and whether or she was really apprehended in Britain as a German spy and learnt to capture pigeons for her supper.

' The Mystery of Lord Kitchener's Death' by Donald McCormick seems to contain the most diverse collection of tales concerning Lord Kitchener's death, but doesn't not seem to have these two ladies featured.

And I am still intrigued, concerning how Lord Kitchener's death set off such a plethora of imaginings amongst sections of the population from 1916-1926.

Regards

Michael Bully

[Guest]

Thanks Michael. More here, but actually it was Rasputin who was responsible for the death of Kitchener.

Mike

[MichaelBully]

Thanks again Mike. Ernst Carl's 'One Against England' is quite well known amongst people interested in Lord Kitchener's death , and features in Donald McCormick's book. And this work also mentions the supposed Rasputin link!

I have always felt that Rasputin has been unfairly maligned, but that belongs to another discussion.

It does seem that all sorts of misfits climbed on the bandwaggon, either claiming to have been involved in the killing of Lord Kitchener or meeting somebody that was. And some of the conspiracy theories got quite creepy,

I am still intrigued how this process came into being. and also how quickly the conspiracy theories began to decline from after 1926.

Regards

Michael Bully

Thanks Michael. More here, but actually it was Rasputin who was responsible for the death of Kitchener.

Mike

[MichaelBully]

Well I think that however objectively one looks as this, the idea that factions within British politics wanted Lord Kitchener dead seem very unlikely. There's a huge difference between wanting someone to go away for a few months, and wanting them silenced forever. And the British authorities would have been aware of how demoralising Lord Kitchener's death would be on the Allied cause.

I still find it hard to imagine that HMS Hampshire was sabotaged internally as it were, so German mine as the cause of the ship's demise seems likely.

So at least the Frau Boecker and Frau Ritz tale makes it clear that HMS Hampshire was sunk by German action. But they got information concerning the date and point of departure, the name of the ship from an unnamed member of Kitchener's staff who was in his cups one June evening, that they could pass to German intelligence?

And the said officer was able to meet the ladies the following evening and try to make out that the mission was really going to Italy?

Lord Kitchener's party set out on Sunday 4th June 1916 which didn't leave much time if all this activity was said to be happening in June. And there was also the battle of Jutland 31st May 1916-1st June 1916, so Kitchener and his staff were most probably very busy , and unlikely to be going out drinking two nights in a row in those few days before departing.

From what I have read so far, it seems that Lord Kitchener formally accepted the invitation to go to Russia on 26th May 1916. It is possible that news of the visit was leaked, possibly from a spy at the Russian court,

Regards

Michael Bully

Sounds plausible enough to me! But we will never know for sure. At least it still blames the Germans which makes it a but more believable.

H.C.

H.C.

[Guest]

Michael. There are a hundred or more articles to browse here

Cheers Mike

[MichaelBully]

That's great Mike! Have started reading through them. I particularly like the story , allegedly originating from a San Francisco newspaper, that Lord Kitchener was in hiding and secretly directing Allied war operations, and that his disappearence was faked in order to fool Germany.

Will take me a while to read through but much appreciated.

Regards, Michael Bully

Michael. There are a hundred or more articles to browse here

Cheers Mike

[Guest]

Found this in Western Times - Tuesday 20 August 1918

" A Kitchener Story-Mr Arnold White, speaking at a British Empire Union meeting in Hyde Park, told a sensational story of the sinking of the Hampshire. Kitchener's murder, he said, was one of the great proofs of the existence of " the hidden hand " in our midst. Twenty-four hours before the voyage it was decided to alter the course of the Hampshire to enable a visit to be made to the Grand Fleet. On that day, a cablegram was sent to Holland in English: " Shall Herbert enter the legal academy next December? " The first censor passed it, but the second censor wondered why the sender had gone to the expense of cabling the word " the ". The answer was that the initials of the word spelt " Shetland. " It was off the Orkneys that Kitchener met his death. That was what I mean by the " Hidden Hand. " It would be a cheap investment for Germany to spend £30,000 in this country at the next election in order to produce a victory for Germany at the polls, and ensure that at the peace table there should be some German representative who would have their cloven feet under the table. "

Has anyone heard of this telegram before, or the change in course of the Hampshire?

Mike

[ss002d6252]

Has anyone heard of this telegram before, or the change in course of the Hampshire?

I have a copy of the "Admiralty. The loss of H.M.S. Hampshire on 5th June 1916. Official narrative " . It makes reference to the route being decided on the basis that the weather and recent submarine activity made the route to the West of the Orkneys the safest one to use - it would seem that several routes were considered but that this route was not the one originally planned.

Craig

[Guest]

Thanks Craig.

Mike

[funfly]

From my book 'The Amazing Story of the Kitchener Poster';

Martyn

In a strange twist, in October 1925 the journalist Frank Power began a series of articles in the Referee, a Sunday newspaper, questioning events on board the Hampshire at the time Kitchener died. He continued his claims for a number of weeks and the reaction of the public to his claims forced an enquiry by the government, which, apparently, interviewed many people about their recollection of events. The information collected was published a year later. Power then changed his line, claiming Kitchener’s body had been found in Norway. He went there with a film crew and a few weeks later a coffin arrived at Waterloo station in London, where Power went to meet it. At this stage, the authorities intervened and the coffin was opened in the presence of the police and Sir Bernard Spilsbury, the forensic scientist who had helped convict the murderer Dr Crippen. The coffin was empty, and it was later shown that Power had engaged in an elaborate hoax. The Referee disowned Power, who was interviewed several times by the police, but not prosecuted.

[J2X]

Great thread. So many interesting points of reference. About FitzGerald's monument: Does anyone know the post nominals listed there: C.M.C.? I've not seen this before.

[The Scorer]

Great thread. So many interesting points of reference. About FitzGerald's monument: Does anyone know the post nominals listed there: C.M.C.? I've not seen this before.

The correct initials are CMG, or the Companion of The Most Distinguished Order of St. Michael & St. George.

A couple of months ago, I came across a cartoon from 1914 with the caption: "Oh Lord, take care of Kitchener, for if anything should happen to him, we'd have nobody to look after us but the Daily Mail". This was in the Bankfield Museum, Halifax, and there's a copy in the Photo Archives of the Imperial War Museum.

However, the site doesn't show the image, and I haven't got my images to hand, so I can't add it here. It was, though, of a little girl praying at her bed side and using the words in the caption.