war grave registers

[bernardmcilwaine]

can anyone tell me what a fair price is for a war graves register,i know that some have more than one book but i mean per book,i have been collecting them since ray westlake sold me over a 100 from his collection,i bought a couple from terry denham who kindly copied the poziers register for me and charged me pennies,there have been a few going on e,bay but i dont want to start going into a bidding war for something that i may be paying far to much for,any ideas,bernard

[BeppoSapone]

Bernard

Do you actually want the books, or is it just the information you want?

If the latter, why not just use the "drop down" menu on the CWGC site?

Drop down "Casualty" and change it to "Cemeteries". Put enough info to call up 'your' cemetery and then click on "Cemetery Reports" and you have an alphabetical list of who is in the cemetery in question.

EG

http: //www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/cemetery_reports.aspx?cemetery=70511&mode=1

From the WW2 Beach Head War Cemetery at Anzio.

[bernardmcilwaine]

hiya beppo,i collect them,but not many come up for sale and i think ime behind the times with prices,eg i dont want to go and buy one and find out i paid far to much for it,bernard

[Terry Denham]

Bernard

This is a 'piece of string' question.

CWGC used to sell the registers for £8 each - no matter how few or how many pages.

Now that they have gone out of print, as with anything that is in demand and has a limited supply, prices have risen.

However, it will depend on which register you are talking about. If you want a register covering - say Canada - then the price is quite low but if you want an original volume for one of the Gallipoli or Italian cemeteries it will be quite high (if you can find one that is!).

Also, the first edition originals command a slightly higher price than the reprint second editions (exact copies) and both usually cost more than the later 'computer' editions produced 1999-2003.

As you are aware I have a complete set but I still buy copies when I see them in second-hand bookshops etc and they are on sale usually for about £5 (for France/Belgium registers).

As with everything, price varies with condition as well.

I have seen them on Ebay with a winning price of up to £25.

[bernardmcilwaine]

thanks terry,so a good buy is about 5 or 6 quid,those on e.bay are going for anything between 3 and 10 pound,i think there are some still on now,most of mine are the british isles including dublin and eire etc,bernard

[Terry Denham]

I wouldn't object to paying £5 for average registers but would expect to pay more if I stumbled on some Gallipoli volumes.

[Michelle Young]

Is it me being cynical or am I the only one who wonders how the sellers obtained the registers? The amount that were stolen must have ended up being sold?

[Nick Cooper]

Is it me being cynical or am I the only one who wonders how the sellers obtained the registers? The amount that were stolen must have ended up being sold?

It's odds on that some will have been obtained by less than honest means, but on the other hand - and as Terry says - in the past they could be bought quite legitimately from the Commission. I got a couple covering Yorkshire about five years ago, plus also one for the Far East for a friend's father, as it covered the cemetery his uncle is buried in. Both the Yorkshire ones were pre-WW2 editions, although that was fine, as I only needed them for the WW1 casualties. I had, in fact, stipulated the latter when ordering - presumably if I had not, I'd have ended up with later editions.

[MartinWills]

Michelle et al,

Most of those which appear for sale tend not to have the used/thumbed look of registers which have seen service at cemeteries. Amongst those I have are ones whicvh have come from large collections; libraries (of one sort or another); from familiy collections and from people like Terry Denham. I have seen them sell for up to £35-£40

[Terry Denham]

Michelle

Rest assured the vast majority on the market are quite legitimate as Martin says.

Remember that, essentially, these were not produced to be placed at cemeteries but to be sold to relatives who could not visit graves or memorials overseas. There was a very healthy trade in these registers in the 1920s/30s - less so after WW2.

Those in cemetery boxes nowadays are usually the less desirable 'computer' versions anyway - produced at the touch of a button and which are 'expendable'. (I still don't condone the stealing of them though).

There are many tens of thousands of these registers 'out there' (if they have survived) and booksellers do obtain them from time to time - some in the past having obtained quite large stocks.

Although not a bookseller myself, I obtained CWGC's entire remaining stock in January 2002 when I discovered that they were about to be dumped to save space. I couldn't see these valuable records end up in the bin and I knew that people would want them. Since 2002 I have sold almost all of them to researchers, collectors etc - and even given quite a few away to deserving causes (well I thought they were!).

[chrisharley9]

Michelle

Rest assured the vast majority on the market are quite legitimate as Martin says.

Remember that, essentially, these were not produced to be placed at cemeteries but to be sold to relatives who could not visit graves or memorials overseas. There was a very healthy trade in these registers in the 1920s/30s - less so after WW2.

Those in cemetery boxes nowadays are usually the less desirable 'computer' versions anyway - produced at the touch of a button and which are 'expendable'. (I still don't condone the stealing of them though).

There are many tens of thousands of these registers 'out there' (if they have survived) and booksellers do obtain them from time to time - some in the past having obtained quite large stocks.

Although not a bookseller myself, I obtained CWGC's entire remaining stock in January 2002 when I discovered that they were about to be dumped to save space. I couldn't see these valuable records end up in the bin and I knew that people would want them. Since 2002 I have sold almost all of them to researchers, collectors etc - and even given quite a few away to deserving causes (well I thought they were!).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have a full set of registers for Norfolk, Suffolk & Cambridgeshire for both Wars purchased for the princely sum of £8 each from the CWCC. Some of them are originals which have obvisously sat there waiting for someone to buy them. The Cambridgeshire Geat War Register is a complete reprint done probably in the 80s as it is in a plastic folder. The Norfolk & Suffolk Great War seem to be original prints. They are not for sale & these exceptional men should not be regarded as commodity to buy & sell

All The Best

Chris

[bernardmcilwaine]

chris,if they are not to be bought and sold,why did you BUY yours from somebody who was SELLING,i collect them because each one is a memorial to the men in them,i only buy for myself i dont buy and sell them on,but i will say this,if it hadnt been for terry denham and ray westlake,a great number of these would have ended up on the tip,thats not a place for a memorial,so we should be grateful that those two blokes rescued them,all my collection came from these two fellas,i class myself as very lucky to own them,and ime sure you feel the same,bernard

[Michelle Young]

I have quite a few original registers which I purchased from the CWGC. I was just musing really about the ebay thing really!

[bernardmcilwaine]

michelle,its probably the only place that you can get them nowadays,at least if any of us get our hands on them,they will be looked after,bernard

[ianw]

I have recently bought 2 registers complete with the letters to the next of kin that bought them to remember their loved ones. In both cases the addresses on the IWGC letters tally with the home addresses listed in the registers. Recognising that these lads may never have had a family visit, I plan to vist them at some time in the future.

Given that the CWGC don't sell the registers anymore, it would seem that Ebay and booksellers are the only source and I can see no objection to interested parties buying the registers. The bidding might be a bit unseemly but that's just the way that Ebay works.

[chrisharley9]

chris,if they are not to be bought and sold,why did you BUY yours from somebody who was SELLING,i collect them because each one is a memorial to the men in them,i only buy for myself i dont buy and sell them on,but i will say this,if it hadnt been for terry denham and ray westlake,a great number of these would have ended up on the tip,thats not a place for a memorial,so we should be grateful that those two blokes rescued them,all my collection came from these two fellas,i class myself as very lucky to own them,and ime sure you feel the same,bernard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bernard

Was refering to dealers & others such as ebay (I should have made myself clearer). I definetly dont want to see them on a tip. Why did the CWGC stop selling them as a matter of interest. I did manage to find out about an air raid on Felixstowe whilst looking through the registers so I was a bit disappointed when the CWGC stopped doing them as I was after the Huntingdonshire volume.

All The Best

Chris

[Terry Denham]

Chris

CWGC stopped producing and selling registers as they had largely been replaced by their online facility. The provision of this facility meets their Charter requirement of maintaining a list of the war dead.

Also, these volumes were not selling in vast quantities and they were occupying yards of badly needed and valuable shelf space at their headquarters (I know because I had to clear them!). Much of the stock had sat on their shelves since the 1920s/30s.

My reasoning for taking them all (a spur of the moment decision on the spot) was that it was better to have them out there amongst people who would appreciate them rather than see them dumped!

[Terry Denham]

For those interested collectors, the following is a list of the different types of WW1 register published by CWGC over the years. Not all registers exist in every format (most in only one but many in at least two).

1) Hard Cover Casebound

Light Grey Smooth Texture Cover (cemeteries)

259 x 206mm

Published 1920

2) Soft Cover Perfect Bound (ie sewn with glued-on cover)

Light Grey Rough Texture (cemeteries)

Dark Brown Rough Texture (memorials)

259 x 206mm

Published 1920 onwards

3) Soft Cover Perfect Bound

Light Grey Rough Texture (cemeteries)

Typesetting & layout as per WW2 register style

259 x 206mm

Published 1967

4) Very Stiff Cover Saddle Stiched (ie stapled)

Pinkish Grey Smooth Texture (cemeteries)

259 x 206mm

Published 1970

5) Stiff Cover Saddle Stiched

Dark Grey Rough Texture (cemeteries)

Light Brown Rough Texture (memorials & a few cemeteries)

259 x 206mm

Photographic reprints of first editions

Published mid-1980s onwards

6) Stiff Cover Plastic Ring Bound with acetate over-cover

Light Grey (cemeteries)

250 x 210mm

Temporary photographic reprint of first editions

Published early 1990s?

7) Stiff Cover Heat Seal Binding with acetate over-cover

Green (cemeteries)

297 x 208mm

Two column re-typeset version of first editions

Published 1995 onwards

8) Stiff Cover Heat Seal Binding with acetate over-cover

Green (cemeteries)

Red (memorials)

297 x 208mm

One column - computer produced pages

Published 1995 onwards

9) Stiff Cover Plastic Ring Binding with acetate over-cover

Green (cemeteries)

Red (memorials)

Light Blue (foreign nationals)

297 x 208mm

One column - computer produced pages

Published 1999 onwards

That brought out the publisher in me!

It is possible that there may be other variations which I have not seen.

[bernardmcilwaine]

terry,do you think a reprint of the originals would be a success,i ask because the cwgc site says died,in the registers many mens details give cause of death eg,died of sickness,wounds,flu etc,ime curious to know why they only say "DIED"but in their registers they give the cause of death,bernard

chris,you had me puzzled with your answer,i know what you mean now,i didnt know there was a register for huntingdonshire,its not on the list terry sent me,and that covers all the british isles,bernard

[Terry Denham]

Bernard

Hunts is in the 'Bedfordshire & Huntingdonshire' WW1 register.

The cause of death information is not included on the website (as we have discussed many times on this forum) as the vast majority of entries are blank and the information is not necessarily reliable as it came from n-o-k in many cases.

In any event, those records that do have entries are often simplistic - such as 'Killed in Action' or 'Died of Wounds'. I suspect that CWGC do not want to face the prospect of hundreds of phone calls/emails from people claiming to know a cause of death or the 'true' cause of death for a particlur individual. Their role is not to update entries but to preserve the data they were given in the first place (same as the NA) - subject to always correcting a proven error where it affects certain information.

This information has always been included in the registers right up to when publication ceased and is still included if you order a printout of any description from them.

A reprint would hold little value in this respect plus, of course, the registers are very out of date now and often do not include many names now commemorated by CWGC nor the many amendments which have been incorporated since 1920.

Also, reprinting the original as a exact copy would involved great production costs whereas reproducing the same but updated data by computer is much cheaper.

However, that does not alter their 'value' as historic documents and they can often solve anomalies caused by the computerisation of the records in the mid-1990s.

[chrisharley9]

Chris

CWGC stopped producing and selling registers as they had largely been replaced by their online facility. The provision of this facility meets their Charter requirement of maintaining a list of the war dead.

Also, these volumes were not selling in vast quantities and they were occupying yards of badly needed and valuable shelf space at their headquarters (I know because I had to clear them!). Much of the stock had sat on their shelves since the 1920s/30s.

My reasoning for taking them all (a spur of the moment decision on the spot) was that it was better to have them out there amongst people who would appreciate them rather than see them dumped!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Terry

A definite vote of thanks. At least they were not all lost

All The Best

Chris

[chrisharley9]

Bernard

Hunts is in the 'Bedfordshire & Huntingdonshire' WW1 register.

The cause of death information is not included on the website (as we have discussed many times on this forum) as the vast majority of entries are blank and the information is not necessarily reliable as it came from n-o-k in many cases.

In any event, those that do have entries are often simplistic - such as 'Killed in Action' or 'Died of Wounds'. I suspect that CWGC do not want to face the prospect of hundreds of phone calls/emails from people claiming to know a cause of death or the 'true' cause of death for a particlur individual. Their role is not to update entries but to preserve the data they were given in the first place (same as the NA) - subject to always correcting a proven error where it affects certain information.

This information has always been included in the registers right up to when publication ceased and is still included if you order a printout of any description from them.

A reprint would hold little value in this respect plus, of course, the registers are very out of date now and often do not include many names now commemorated by CWGC nor the many amendments which have been incorporated since 1920.

Also, reprinting the original as a exact copy would involved great production costs whereas reproducing the same but updated data by computer is much cheaper.

However, that does not alter their 'value' as historic documents and they can often solve anomalies caused by the computerisation of the records in the mid-1990s.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Terry

I did point out some very serious spelling errors with the Cambridgeshire register which I think came down to the scanning process - however they were not prepared to correct them as they pointed out this was the info they had been provided at the the time. There is certain unwillingness at CWGC to even correct the obvious - and I quite willing to give examples - and it is just not the CWGC

I have been working on family history in W Norfolk & sometimes the transcriptions available on the web depend on someone elses reading skills - In one case an American student doing the transcriptions wouldm't believe there was such a name as See so transposed it to Lee- i have spent two years looking for something that wasn't there

All The Best

Chris

[Terry Denham]

CWGC will not correct any information originally supplied by other authorities without proof of the error. What is 'obvious' to one may not be obvious to another. They will always stand by their original information unless solid proof is provided.

They will correct immediately errors caused by their own processes.

If you would like to email me your errors, I will see what can be done. However, if the errors were included at the time in the original info, they could not be scanning errors.

[bernardmcilwaine]

thanks terry,i missed all the earlier topics on this subject cos i only joined a couple of months ago,bernard

[Terry Denham]

Bernard

Sorry, I forgot that not all of us have been here since the dawn of time.