Uniforms and Equipment of the British Army....

[DrB]

Eagerly awaited by myself, "The Uniforms and Equipment of the British Army in World War I' by Stephen Chambers, published by Schiffer Military History is available. Pricey, but valuable.

Consists mostly of contemporary b/w photos. Commentary is terse and limited. The pictures speak for themselves. Literally hundreds of them, candid and posed. Only a few pages in color, those being the old Players cigarette cards "Unit and Divisional Signs."

I was hoping for somethng more along the lines of the "British Soldier" by Bochery published by Histoire & Collections, but this was not to be.

All pictures are captioned, although some of the captions are questionable. (The 'Atholl Murray' tartan for the S.A. Scottish for exmple)

Likely the forum experts will take some shots at the book, but one cannot argue with the pictures. May not be regulation, but there it is!

A good read for the advanced historian, but for the novice, I think a little to advanced.

Doubtless someone will disagree with this, but everyone has their own opinion.

A feast for the eyes, indeed!

DrB

[squirrel]

DrB

a good concise appraisal of this book. The only thing I would add is that some of the captions tend to raise more queries than they resolve.

It is also very, very heavy; made my arms ache reading through it.

[Graham Stewart]

Gentlemen,

Captions aside something like this has been long overdue, showing "Tommy" for all he's worth and you'll be hard pressed to see another volume produced that'll come anyware near it. Pricey - yes, but there again it's a book for those who truelly love research and detail. Now all we have to do is wait for the Cavalry/Yeomanry volume.

The one downside, have you seen the spiralling prices of photo's of soldiers on Ebay?

Graham.

[bernardmcilwaine]

drb,i have the two bochery vols and they are 1st class,but not come across this book till you posted it,sounds very good,whats the pricey price drb,bernard

[DrB]

The damage for this critter is 69.95 in US dollars, so 'bout 30-35 pounds for you guys. 'Tis a hefty thing though in weight and well worth the investment for the pictures, some of which I had never seen before.(Fun for us cap badge lovers as well.)

DrB

[Graham Stewart]

Bernard,

£50 through Ottakers.

Graham.

[Muerrisch]

Detailed comments so far ............. do you want beyond page 100 out there?

Page numbers:

16. FSMO is Field Service Marching Order, whereas FMO is Full Marching Order.

24. The scarlet 7-button jacket is a tunic.

26. top. All the soldiers are senior NCOs, and include a Colour Sergeant. The man with four chevrons, crossed rifles and crown above wears the Staff Sergeant’s cap, and holds the appointment of Musketry Instructor.

78. The scout badge is the ‘company scout’ badge, the lesser qualification, without the distinctive cross-bar.

79. The corporal has the marksman skill-at-arms badge.

82. I doubt if the ‘stretcher bearer’ is 10th Devons: more likely RAMC attached 10th Devons. Stretcher Bearers wore SB, only RAMC were to wear the Geneva Cross.

93. spelling: signallers not signalers [occurs many times]

93. The sergeant is an assistant instructor in musketry and also another subject …. badge in wreath over the crossed flags.

99. The North Staffs WO may be a WOI or II, depends on date of photograph.

[squirrel]

Keep it coming Sir, keep it coming.........................

[Krithia]

Mr ‘Grumpy’ Langley, the work was designed as a general photographic study thus the weight of the book was naturally pictorial, which unfortunately meant some editing in terms of caption detail. Additionally, I tried not to repeat myself with captions, for example when a badge has already been identified elsewhere in the work or where it may detract from the text. It is not always possible to please everyone all of the time!

I would naturally like to hear from anyone who has identified any substantiated errors in the captions, so that they can be corrected in future editions. However to maintain some professionalism I would appreciate a PM (personal message) as I am sure Grumpy, who isn’t without error in his publications, would also.

If I may answer the points below.

16. I choose to use the standard as published by the WFA (and many others) e.g. “Full Service”.

24. Yes, tunic is the correct name.

26, 78, 79, 93 – Unfortunately due to space restrictions I couldn’t expand as fully as I may have wanted. As the work is not on insignia, this was a sacrifice I choose to make.

82. The photo speaks for itself. It is a 10th Devons man. The reverse confirms this (named card) as does the cap badge !

93. The book was published by a US publisher, thus US spelling. This is just as annoying for me … us poor red necks.

99. The photo is correctly identified.

Thanks for all your comments, Steve Chambers

[Simon Jones]

You tell 'em Steve.

The book is excellent.

Regards

Simon

[Muerrisch]

Mr ‘Grumpy’ Langley, the work was designed as a general photographic study thus the weight of the book was naturally pictorial, which unfortunately meant some editing in terms of caption detail. Additionally, I tried not to repeat myself with captions, for example when a badge has already been identified elsewhere in the work or where it may detract from the text. It is not always possible to please everyone all of the time!

I would naturally like to hear from anyone who has identified any substantiated errors in the captions, so that they can be corrected in future editions. However to maintain some professionalism I would appreciate a PM (personal message) as I am sure Grumpy, who isn’t without error in his publications, would also.

If I may answer the points below.

16. I choose to use the standard as published by the WFA (and many others) e.g. “Full Service”.

24. Yes, tunic is the correct name.

26, 78, 79, 93 – Unfortunately due to space restrictions I couldn’t expand as fully as I may have wanted. As the work is not on insignia, this was a sacrifice I choose to make.

82. The photo speaks for itself. It is a 10th Devons man. The reverse confirms this (named card) as does the cap badge !

93. The book was published by a US publisher, thus US spelling. This is just as annoying for me … us poor red necks.

99. The photo is correctly identified.

Thanks for all your comments, Steve Chambers

Good to know the author of such a fine book is 'one of us'.

With regard to a PM, happily, but in addition to listing on this thread what I take to be valid points: you will note that I am not alone in having reservations about the captions. And, yes, the man who never made a mistake never made anything, so my five published books have a depressing list of annotatations in each of them: my concern is that such an important book as yours could be improved. Pals have shown interest in my suggestions, so I will keep them coming.

First, I am glad you agree with most of my observations. I make this opportunity to expand on those where you did not agree:

16. The eminent authority The Long Trail by Brophy and Partidge makes a distinction as follows:

FSMO Field Service Marching Order, often qualified to FMO Full Marching Order. I could find other contemporary references if needs be.

82. I expressed doubt [not certainty, I cannot identify the cap badge as printed, even with a powerful glass] because a combatant soldier wearing the Geneva cross was breaking International Law .... the brassard was for non-combatants only. I would add that this malpractice was not unique, I have other similar photos. But Pals might like the oddities to be flagged up for them.

99. I did not make my point sufficiently clearly: The crown as a badge for a WO I appointed RSM was superceded in 1915, thus, those who like to date photographs have an extra clue. A RSM would wear the Royal Arms after the change, and a a WO II took to the crown.

[Muerrisch]

another tranche of supplementary notes, with what may be errata in red:

101. LCpl is a signaller and has the Good Conduct Badge for two years notionally crime-free conduct.

109. The corporal wears the MG assistant instructor's badge.

115. In 1916, a CSM should have worn a crown only, on lower sleeve [change occurred in 1915]. If Australian practice followed British, the soldier is a Colour Sergeant.

133. The bomber's badge is worth comment: not only is it on the wrong arm, it should be worn upper arm, and appears to be the officer's variety! These things happened, and are worth noting.

160. The sergeant has the Military Medal ribbon.

163. The central soldier appears to be a farrier sergeant-major or corporal'major [depending on unit], with crown in wreath over horseshoe.

178. Grimshaw wears the territorial efficiency star: note that 'proficiency' stars were four-pointed, and were only for SNCOs, and were to be worn 'above all other badges' on the right sleeve.

183. Two Good Conduct Badges were for five years service, not six '..

188...... and three GCBs were for twelve years.

more when I have time.

[Muerrisch]

and some more:

211. The top photograph shows an unusually qualified DR: a drummer with a distance-judging star [this latter might just be a TF efficiency star, as there is a suspicion of a T/ above his shoulder title. The two uses employed the same 5-pointed star in the same position.

211. And the lower DR is a qualified smith [or allied trade] with three overseas chevrons.

285. Neither photograph seems to show any trace of bandsmen as such: the Scots comprise ‘Pipes and Drums’, and the RAMC appear to be a ‘Corps of Drums’. The ‘bags’ are in fact drum aprons. Neither pipers nor drummers had a stretcher-bearing role under normal active service conditions.

289. Note the fact that crown and swords are separate [and indeed out of alignment]. Clothing regulations 1914 attribute the total badge to Squadron Sergeant Majors in Fencing and Gymnastics, and also to [any rank] Best Swordsman in Regiment. Without a positive ID on the back of the photograph, impossible to be certain.

297. The 1914 star is worn without a bar and is therefore not what is colloquially known as a Mons Star. The photograph is obviously taken after October 13th 1918, but it may be that he was qualified for the bar and had not received it.

300. A CSM should most certainly not have been wearing three chevrons with crown in 1917: this was supplanted by a crown [only] on lower sleeve in 1915.

303. This caption is wrong: his badges are: top- best shot of sergeants and above in battalion, and below, best shot in company.

[Jonathan Saunders]

The book is excellent.

For all the author's faults I agree with Simon that this is an excellent reference and long overdue as some body has already pointed out. Cost is high but reasonable IMHO - where could you buy a collection of photographs/postcards like these at such a low price.

Based on this heavy tomb, I have just taken advantage of the N&M 15% Easter discount to add the German army volumes together with the French and Austrian uniform book in the same series to my shelves. The similar Russian uniform book can wait!

With regard to caption errors, isnt the search for them what we enjoy most

[Muerrisch]

My essential point is that the book is SO good that, in years to come, it might be cited as an authority regarding not only the pictures but the analysis of the pictures. For all I know, there may be no other areas of error or shortcoming other than badges and medals, as being outside my, admittedly narrow, groove.

Having paid full whack for the book, I feel that I have licence to add my fourpennorth.

More to come!

[lassuy]

I replied to an earlier post on this volume, but I must reiterate----for anyone who isn't aware, Schiffer Publishing has done an outstanding job in publishing quite a number of great War reference books. All are done in hardcover and on glossy paper, the quality is wonderful. I splurged and bought the volumes on Great Britain, Russia, France, Austria-Hungary, and three of the volumes on Germany. I'm very pleased with all of them. Pricey, but worth it. Schiffer Publishing has a website, and the current catalog can be ordered from them online for free. I'm saving my pennies now for the forthcoming US Infantry volume.

[Jonathan Saunders]

I'm saving my pennies now for the forthcoming US Infantry volume.

It might be out already ... your comment has reminded me I ordered that one too. Obviously I wont be going out for several months to pay for these.

[lassuy]

"I won't be going out for several months to pay for these."

I know, I shudder to think what I've spent on these books. Would have bought me a nice Mauser Gew98, or a very nice SMLE. Oh well, these books are keepsakes just as much as my rifles are, and an investment in books is repaid many times (or so I've been told).

[uncle bill]

stay way clear of the french volume in this series, literally full of mistakes and lots of postwar photos;

[Jonathan Saunders]

"I won't be going out for several months to pay for these."

I know, I shudder to think what I've spent on these books. Would have bought me a nice Mauser Gew98, or a very nice SMLE. Oh well, these books are keepsakes just as much as my rifles are, and an investment in books is repaid many times (or so I've been told).

To be honest and based on my experience of the excellent British Uniforms book by Steve Chambers, I think they are great value for money - thats why I have bought them - and they are probably more useful than a Mauser or a trio!

[Jonathan Saunders]

stay way clear of the french volume in this series, literally full of mistakes and lots of postwar photos;

Too late. I am not so concerned with the caption mistakes as I am about your report of postwar photos. I guess one dud book from half a dozen is a reasonable return.

[Muerrisch]

I replied to an earlier post on this volume, but I must reiterate----for anyone who isn't aware, Schiffer Publishing has done an outstanding job in publishing quite a number of great War reference books. All are done in hardcover and on glossy paper, the quality is wonderful. I splurged and bought the volumes on Great Britain, Russia, France, Austria-Hungary, and three of the volumes on Germany. I'm very pleased with all of them. Pricey, but worth it. Schiffer Publishing has a website, and the current catalog can be ordered from them online for free. I'm saving my pennies now for the forthcoming US Infantry volume.

Very expensive in UK, however.

[Muerrisch]

One last comment on the book.

In his Introduction, the author goes a long way out on a very slender limb, by claiming:

'By the start of the First World War the Victorian Full Dress uniform of scarlet, blue or green was virtually obsolete. A Special Army Order declared that Service Dress was to be worn by all ranks for all purposes, except ceremonial guard'

This is not true, and may be based on a misconception. I think I have the relevant AOs and Clothing Regs and it appears that what was abolished [after the normal 'using up' process] was the undress scarlet FROCK and its blue and green equivalents. This garment was loosely cut, had five buttons, and with minimal adornment. Even so, this abolition did not extend beyond 'Home' stations, and was in any case sometimes honoured in the breach rather than the observance, as specimens of the frock were still being produced as late as 1913, and as soldiers returning from India etc had perforce to wait for the SD to be issued and wore as a stopgap the India Pattern frock [lined at their own expense!] instead.

The TUNIC, with seven buttons, piping, and full adornment was specified for [inter alia] Reviews, Parades, Court Martials, Garrison Boards, Church Parades and Walking Out [worn for this latter with the new cap]. A glance at various Battalion Standing Orders, and the History of the Dress of the HLI, confirm this, together with the evidence that the Treasury continued to supply the 'Full Dress' to the usual scale right up to the war.

Finally, the countless photographs and military prints of the period 1902 to 1914 echo the truth that Full Dress was far from being confined to ceremonial guard.

[Joe Sweeney]

Grumpy,

I took the reference in the book to mean Army Order 292 of August 1914 which mandated the Army shall only wear Service Dress, or Khaki Drill, for all occasions (with a few exceptions). This effectively retired the traditional full dress for most of the army, continuing to this day.

The Shiffer books are expensive everywhere and for the most part worth it.

Joe Sweeney

[Muerrisch]

Yes, I have that AO, I took the reference to mean from 1902! I could be wrong, but that is how it came over.