Earliest CWGC stone

[Boreenatra]

What is the earliest date on a CWGC stone or memorial in the U.K.? Regards Steve.

[Tom Morgan]

What a great question! I suppose the earliest date must be 4th August, 1914?

VILES, JOSEPH

Initials: J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment: Somerset Light Infantry

Unit Text: 1st Bn.

Age: 27

Date of Death: 04/08/1914

Service No: 7297

Additional information: Son of Joseph and Sarah Viles.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: O. B. 2.

Cemetery: BATH (ST. JAMES'S) CEMETERY

[Boreenatra]

Anyone got a pic. I've got a 14th August 1914. The U.K. stones for servicemen and women must have been erected at later dates. Regards Steve.

[David Seymour]

Tom,

How did you do that? How did you find a 4/8/14 so quickly?

Regards,

David

[Tom Morgan]

Hi David,

I used "Soldiers Died...." I searched for anyone who died in 1914 with the place of death given as "Home" and looked at the list. The earliest one I could see with a quick look was 13th August I think. I searched again looking for any deaths between 4th August and 13th August. There weren't many, and that date leaped out at me of course. I must say I was surprised! Then I copied the details from his Commonwealth War Graves Commission record.

Tom

[Myrtle]

Joseph Viles born in Bath was a teaboy in 1901. He had three brothers, Charles, William and Albert. Charles also died in WW1, April 20th 1918.

[Tom Morgan]

I just went back to SDGW for another look. Pte. Viles is the only man listed for 4th August 1914, officers included.

[Boreenatra]

Some CWGC listed graves don't seem to exist anymore for various reasons. Some are also wall panels and memorials.I really just wondered what the earliest stones ( as opposed to listings ) were. Is there a picture of J.V's memorial, at St. James's. Also does CWGC have it's own numbereing system i.e. J. Viles No. 1 or are all listings alphabetical ( Help please Terry) Regards Steve.

[Terry Denham]

There are four men in the CWGC list who died on 04.08.14 - three of them buried in the UK.

The interesting thing is that they probably all died before the UK declared war at 23.00 hours on that day!

CWGC do not enter names into the database alphabetically - nor are they numbered sequentially. As with all computer databases, records are entered 'as they come' and have no sequential logic other than they appear in the order in which they were entered!

Therefore a man added today will appear at the end of the list. However, this is irrelevant as a database will order the records in any way in which you instruct it at any one time.

The system does allocate a unique casualty number to each record but these are in the order in which the records were added and have no meaning other than to identify an individual record.

Joseph Viles is number 394045.

The only CWGC graves that no longer exist are those deemed unmaintainable where the commemoration now appears on a memorial or as a Special Memorial headstone. Over some graves, however, it was never possible to erect a CWGC headstone for a variety of reasons.

[Boreenatra]

Thanks again Terry for your reply. Of the 4 men who died on the 4th August are any buried with CGWC headstones. It sometimes seems difficult when a name appears on the CWGC list as buried at a certain plot but the graves are no longer there.Is there a list of CWGC headstones or is that not really a consideration in the grand scheme of things? Also how long usually does it take to replace a stone for renovation or replacement such as this one in Barking? Regards Steve.

[cockney tone]

Moving slightly away from the intended 'location' of the original thread, I was very surprised to see a '1913' date of death on a CWGC headstone in the Cemetery on the Island of Saint Lucia, stupidly I deleted the photo from my camera and now cannot recall the details.

Scottie.

[Terry Denham]

Cockney

The man to whom you refer is..

Ldg Smn E.Chester

189126 Royal Navy, HMS Cumberland

Died 14.02.13

Buried in Choc Bay War Cemetery, St Lucia

This is not a Commonwealth War Grave but a Non-World War Grave in CWGC Care (under contract to the MoD).

Steve

I do not understand your statement 'but the graves are no longer there'. No war graves are moved except in extreme circumstances - very rare in the UK. I think you must be referring to occasions when graves cannot have CWGC headstones erected over them for various reasons. All grave references in the CWGC list are still accurate.

There is no generally available list of graves with CWGC headstones (as opposed to private ones) as it is irrelevant to their war grave status. Being recognised as an official war grave does not depend on whether it has a CWGC stone or a private one. There is no difference in status between the two - other than CWGC having a duty to maintain the former and not the latter.

The period taken to replace a stone varies depending on circumstances but one to two years is not unusual. Remember that all European cemetery stones are manufactured in one plant in France (except those made of granite and those around the Mediterranean - made in Italy).

The replacement headstone for Pte T.E.Tuck in Barking (Rippleside) Cemetery was requested on 01.02.05 - (I was born in Barking!).

[cockney tone]

Terry,

thank you for the details (which I will not lose this time) and the explanation which makes sense, I was very surprised to see the 1913 date as I always assumed that the earliest date on a CWGC stone would coincide with the start of the Great War.

regards,

Scottie.

[Terry Denham]

Scottie

There is no Commonwealth War Grave with a date outside the qualifying dates of 04.08.14 to 31.08.21 and 03.09.39 to 31.12.47 inclusive.

It just cannot happen. Anything else is a Non-World War headstone in the care of another authority or of CWGC under contract.

[cockney tone]

Terry,

thank you for the further information especially the dates which I was unaware. if anybody can throw any light on the circumstances of Ldg Seaman Chester's death and how he happened to end up in the CWGC plot under one of their headstones please let me know.

Should you have the oppotuntity to visit Choc Bay I would advise that you take a map as the cabbie was somewhat bemused by this strange 'Brit' in baggy shorts wearing a dodgy panama hat requesting to be taken to the graveyard. Despite driving a cab around Castries for over 30 years he stated this was the first time he had taken anybody on a 'return trip' from the cemetery!

Regards,

Scottie.

[Boreenatra]

Terry. Thanks for the reply. Sorry,what I meant was stones not being there as opposed to graves not being there. Because there is no difference in the war grave status,would it mean in most cases that if a stone or the sight of a grave plot "appears"not to be there then it would in all probability be private ?

In Barking there is a plot no I. 266 allocated to Edward Charles Bearman Pte 9635 died 29/10 1918, also listed as E.C. Steadman with the same details but listed as ALIAS. I would assume it is the same man, but there is nothing visible where the plot number would be. Does CWGC recognise this man to be "one person" or two individual records which happen to be of the same person?

You had answered a question before concerning a lack of final vereification details not being returned for a number of reasons, but are any stones erected (for either war )if, for example a family requested a CWGC stone now that had not for whatever reason had one before.? One last observation if I may, is that would it be difficult to update the names of the locations in the U.K. and perhaps have addresses attached to cemeteries and churchyards so they may be easier to locate. Many sites change names and designations and are somewhat difficult to find. There is a churchyard listed as Dagenham (SS Peter and Paul) Churchyard) which We cannot find (we have a very distant relative there apparently) Checked maps of now and a 60's area map and also yellow pages, (which as a simple address tool is excellent) but still no joy. We think it may have been renamed.Any info greatly appreciated.

As you have said before, the lists are not a research tool per se but are they simply just a list of records held by CWGC?

Many thanks for your indulgence and sorry again for my inaccurate question!!!

Regards Steve.

[Terry Denham]

Steve

The cemetery names used by CWGC in the UK are the official ones - even when these differ from those used locally. When a cemetery changes its name, it is changed in CWGC's database. Sometimes the names used locally can be very different!

The Dagenham location has its own web site!

http://www.barking-dagenham.gov.uk/4-herit...-main-menu.html

If you are ever unable to locate a site or an individual grave, you can always email CWGC's UK Area Office and they will give directions. (ukaoffice@cwgc.org)

If a family rejected the offer of a CWGC stone at the time, they could ask if the Commission will now supply one only if any private memorial no longer fits the requirement of commemorating the casualty.

However, on some occasions a CWGC stone is not possible because the cemetery owners do not wish new stones to be erected in older parts of a cemetery - intending it to revert to grass for ease of maintenance. Also, it can be difficult in the case of bodies in common graves with multiple occupancy.

There are not two records in CWGC's list for the same man - Bearman/Steadman. One is the official listing and the other is a cross reference using his 'alias'. There are two entries so that anyone searching for the 'alias' will be directed to the right record. These 'alias' entries are not counted in CWGC's statistics and are there simply to help people find the right record.

[Boreenatra]

Terry. As usual it all makes sense when you explain it to us lesser mortals!! As for the Dagenham Parish Church, well, we are making the humble pie as we speak. This is made worse by the fact that Pat spent a lot of her mispent youth in the Cross Keys pub, nearby ( I can plead ignorance as I am a North London boy).

Sometimes, as I should know by now,you have to be a bit creative when researching, but thanks anyway for all your help.

One thing that I have realised is what a wonderful job the CWGC does. Out in the field as it were, the sheer number of stones in thousands of locations, especially where in some cases there may be only one stone, must be a hugely difficult exercise, perhaps like painting the Forth Bridge. Is the work done by teams locally or nationally. Sometimes it seems ironic that private memorials often grandiose in design and size are often the most folorn objects when they are left neglected and unattended. Obviously people move away and families fragment and for all sorts of reasons memorials are just left, and now with ( for me anyway) a better grasp of what CWGC's role actually is it's good to know that the reason that most forum members are here i.e. to perpetuate their links to the World Wars fallen, that this organisation exists in that regard. Also the stones are a damn sight easier to find than the private ones. Ah methinks the pie is ready!! Best regards Steve.

[spike10764]

One thing that I have realised is what a wonderful job the CWGC does. Out in the field as it were, the sheer number of stones in thousands of locations, especially where in some cases there may be only one stone, must be a hugely difficult exercise, perhaps like painting the Forth Bridge. Is the work done by teams locally or nationally.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steve,

When I was taking photos in Bowness on Solway last year, I met one of the CWGC, whose job it was to check and report on the conditions of stones under their care. Now, Bowness on Solway is on a spit of land extending into the Solway at the top of Cumbria. This lads area was from Leeds, where he was from, upward(which must have meant quite a lot of travelling in the course of his work). It's good to know that there are actually people out there, doing these inspections even in out of the way graveyards with only one stone. When you see the condition of some of the private stones(which the commision cannot touch) you kind of wish that all the stones were CWGC design.

[Boreenatra]

Spike. That's my point exactly. How often do you come across a memorial to a fallen serviceman or woman only to wish the CWGC could do something to restore some of these sad and broken sites to some form of respectability. I know its not their job or their remit but I feel every war grave should have a permanent and uniform marker such as the CWGC has. Case in point. Sidney Thomas Portway Pte 26836 Durham Light Infantry died 30/06/1920, buried in Barking, and this is by no means the worst by a long way.There probably was a stone at some point, but now a sad reminder rather than proud rememberance. And perhaps the saddest thing of all is when there is just nothing left at all at a particular plot you know had a fallen serviceman there. Regards Steve.

[spike10764]

Yes Steve,

It fair breaks my heart to see the private stones in such a state of disrepair as this.Here's one I took in Penrith Cemetery, Cumbria, surrounded by a fir tree

For the record this one belongs to

PATTINSON Private T B 202934.

7th (West. and Cumb. Yeomanry) Bn. Border Regiment.

6th February 1919. Age 28.

Son of Lancelot Pattinson. Born at Penrith.

It's a shame, it really is

[Boreenatra]

Spike at least we can take a picture of their memorials and print their names on this forum. Not forgotten. Regards Steve.

[Terry Denham]

All war graves are inspected on a two/three year cycle by CWGC's Area Inspectors - both CWGC and private headstones.

If a private stone is deemed to no longer provide a fitting commemoration, CWGC will try to do something about it.

If no relatives can be found to take responsibility (unlikely), they will seek permission from the cemetery authorities to erect a headstone. This is not a quick or simple process with the legalities involved and can take several years. Permission is sometimes refused.

Also, there is a financial implication and CWGC is not overflowing with funds and so everything has to take its place in the timetable. What we regard as an 'unfitting' memorial will not often match CWGC's view. As long as the name is visible, the memorial is usually deemed to be OK.

[Boreenatra]

Thanks Terry. It's good to know that is the case. What happens if there is nothing on a particular site, say as in the Bearman/Steadman situation earlier in the thread. Would that be a criteria for an enquiry by CWGC. I've come across plenty that just are not marked anymore. ( I nearly said not there anymore ,but I made that mistake last time!) Regards Steve.

[spike10764]

All war graves are inspected on a two/three year cycle by CWGC's Area Inspectors - both CWGC and private headstones.

If a private stone is deemed to no longer provide a fitting commemoration, CWGC will try to do something about it.

If no relatives can be found to take responsibility (unlikely), they will seek permission from the cemetery authorities to erect a headstone. This is not a quick or simple process with the legalities involved and can take several years. Permission is sometimes refused.

Also, there is a financial implication and CWGC is not overflowing with funds and so everything has to take its place in the timetable. What we regard as an 'unfitting' memorial will not often match CWGC's view. As long as the name is visible, the memorial is usually deemed to be OK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the information Terry- I suppose things are never as easy as they might seem to the uninformed.