'The Mound', Beaucourt

[Chris Noble]

Hi.

Whilst doing some 'homework' as regards my next visit to the Somme, initially, following the movements of the 12th R.I.R and the 9th R.I.F., this position, namely 'The Mound' has aroused my interest. Is it a natural feature, or man made.? Did it feature more predominantly in the attack of the 63rd Division, 13th November 1916 or did it have a part to play in the demise of the 108th Brigade, 1st July 1916?

Any opinions on this most appreciated.

Regards, Chris.

[Desmond7]

Chris - The area in which the mound is shown on the trench maps was subject to 'patrol activity' according to the 12th R I Rifles war diary for July 1, 1916.

Check this with the always helpful Mr. Whitehead but 'the mound' as it was known to the British may have been called the 'Beaver Colony' by the Germans because they had to build it up because the marshy nature of the ground?

As I say .. check with the man.

Des

[burlington]

I think that this is 'the Mound'.

In fact it is the only thing it could be in that area.

Martin

[Chris Noble]

Des and Martin, many thanks for the info.

I presume then, if i'm correct, 'The Mound' was constructed due to the fact that conventional trench digging techniques were out of the question, i.e., the marshes of the River Ancre?

One thing that confuses me, and is it due to the innaccuracies in the trench maps, the size of the location?

How big was it, and if Crooneart can help (Dave please!), a reference for the location?

Des, i'll drop you a PM, as i intend to follow the movements of the 12th R.I.R in this location.

Nice photo Martin.

Regards to you both.

Chris.

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Does anyone have a map that will show the location of this structure? If it is the area of the Biber Kolonie (Beaver Colony) it could be a structure from the 99th RIR that had to use construction techniques associated more with Flanders and the high water table. All of the structures were built up from the marshy ground.

The area is also filled with French and probably British du shells as the swampy ground resulted in many of the shells failing to go off. Let me see a map if possible so I can match it with the period German maps, thanks.

Ralph

[Desmond7]

From the deep and distant past on the forum ... many thanks to the provider!

Mound vandalised with spray can.

[egbert]

Here is a drawing of Biberkolonie and whatever must be the Mound; the Ancre Valley was deliberately flooded by the Germans

[jdajd]

In relation to the other thread Killing Field, where on Desmond's map would the Schwaben Redoubt be or is it just off the map?

[Desmond7]

JD - can you see the letters St. P on the right edge of Ralph's map? Imagine the Schwaben etc away to the far right of those letters. Roughly!

Looking again I see the Tal Stellung 'Valley Position/Site'?? Adjacent to 'The Mound' as marked on British maps. I have also heard the trenches which branch down into the valley described as 'Railway Sap' in British terms. Perhaps the Mound itself was just a central 'high ground' feature of the overall 'Tal Stellung/Railway Sap' outposts?

Des

[CROONAERT]

Here's a close-up of the mound area shown on Des' ( ) map (57d SE ed.2.B. (April 1916))...

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

...and a clip from a year later ,after the area had been re-surveyed...

dave.

[Chris Noble]

Dave /Ralph, cheers for that.

Now i'm pushing it. How big, metres, feet, for the British contingent, is the structure? Can we calculate this?

Regards, Chris.

[egbert]

just found this phantastic and rare 1916 picture of Ancre Valley:

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Great photo Egbert. I have only seen a few of this area, all from German sources so far. I read an account from the 99th RIR in 1915. There were numerous dud French shells due to the soft ground. The men in the 99th were sending 'fire ships' down stream. They would build a small raft and place a dud shell on it in a small barrel with a fuze.

According to the 99th RIR the French were quite upset by this dastardly act. Considering that both sides were actively trying to destroy the other is there any means of destruction that is dastardly as opposed to acceptable?

Ralph

[Desmond7]

Nice on Egbert and usual quality from Mr. W! Francis Drake would have approved of the fireships ...

I've seen several pictures of the Ancre Valley marsh area pre 1st July 1916. I was amazed at how little damage had been caused to trees by shelling.

Even though the pics were black and white it was obvious that trees were in full leaf.

In one of the pictures, men are washing pots and pans while in the background a large splash denotes the arrival of a shell.

[egbert]

Is it in fact possible to identify the location of the photographer? I see the RR track, the photographer position is a bit elevated from the muddy grounds =could it be the most forward Brit trench right before the Ancre grounds, looking towards ST. Pierre and Thiepval?

[CROONAERT]

Is it in fact possible to identify the location of the photographer? I see the RR track, the photographer position is a bit elevated from the muddy grounds =could it be the most forward Brit trench right before the Ancre grounds, looking towards ST. Pierre and Thiepval?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Looking at the road that exists before the "flood", before the railway, which is before a "lake", it looks to me like it's taken from the German line facing obliquely to the front (photo taken west to east). My guess would be that the photo was taken from the German line above the word "The" of "the Mound" in my above trenchmap extract (practically from where the "80 m contour" is marked).

Dave.

[egbert]

Dave that's exactly the point I have in mind as well!

[egbert]

Found another great photo from late 1915 to appr. early1916 from Ancre grounds; anybody identifies the location?

[Jack Sheldon]

Egbert

Looking at it and from the lie of the land and the slight curve in the river I think that it was taken looking west on the south bank of the Ancre near the mill (south west of St Pierre Divion). That would mean that the bridge in the middle distance is the one which carries Mill Road. There are not many points along the Ancre with that combination of features. The only problem is that the location is well forward and I am not sure that a group of soldiers would have gathered like that there in broad daylight. I should be interested to have Paul Reed's opinion.

Jack

[egbert]

This is interesting Jack! Loolking at the topography though -if i follow your theory- the gentle slope, rising to the left of the pic must rise than to the right of the pic?? We always have to consider though that the original pic later for printing was mistakenly "mirrowed" . Even if this is a 1915 "more peaceful" pic , I would not think the Germans gather a coy too close to the frontline, so the location might very well be at next bridge, north of the mound??? What do you think?

[CROONAERT]

The only problem is that the location is well forward and I am not sure that a group of soldiers would have gathered like that there in broad daylight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jack.

I doubt that they'd have gathered there at night-time either! Unless I've misunderstood your posting, that would put them as having paraded in no-man's land for this photo!

Here's a scan of the river as it winds deeper into the German lines (April 1916)...

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

My guess is that it was taken somewhere within the area of this scan (bearing in mind that the pontoon bridges shown are only temporary and don't necessarily show up on an OS map)...

[CROONAERT]

We always have to consider though that the original pic later for printing was mistakenly "mirrowed" .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Egbert.

This picture is not a "mirror image". The soldiers are "dressing to the right" as is correct.

Dave.

[egbert]

Egbert.

This picture is not a "mirror image". The soldiers are "dressing to the right" as is correct.

Dave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you're very right

stays the question: at what point does the slope rise gently to the left; if it is Thiepval ridge with Schwaben redoubt further back, the pic must be taken substantially further south, directly in vicinity of frontline; if the rising ground is that of Beaumont ridge, than???????