How Many

[Drummy]

In relation to 'missing' there are the Naval losses and army etc lost at sea who will always be recorded as missing. I have no figures on Navy & Army losses at sea but I am aware a lot of Army troops were lost in troopship sinkings as well those who DOW on hospital ships on their way from theatres such as Gallipoli and were buried at sea.

Another one is the known graves in India written off by the British goverment and now commemorated on memorials in India are these included as 'missing' even though we know the original grave locations?

Thanks Neil.

[Sue Light]

I'm so glad the story is out in the open. Albert Twig was my Great Grandfather. His recollections and original orders,were written on rice paper and left inside the matchbox he used to start the fire. He was supposed to have memorised and eaten them, but Albert being Albert.....

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Terry

My admiration for you grows by the second. That rice paper is preserved in HO205/222 and a recently intercepted coded message from William Spencer to the Prime Minister makes it clear that he will not sleep until the relatives of that ARP warden are brought to justice.

At least it was smart of Albert to change the family name when he moved to Co....

Ooops... nearly gave the game away there!

Mmmm.... Terry Twigg has a certain ring to it

[John_Hartley]

The German mass graves are (along with being pretty practical) quite sybolic, representing "Comradeship beyond the realms of life".

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Dave

Thanks for the correction and extra info.

Your quote above is what I was trying to say earlier

John

[truthergw]

The worst battlefield for French casualties was probably Verdun. There were many areas covered with dead who were exposed for a long time. The French cleared the field to some extent and placed the remains in an ossuary. There is another ossuary at NotreDame de Lorette where the bones of the French dead from Vimy and that area are preserved. So , lots of dead, no graves. Very many of the French dead from the Battles of the Frontiers would have been hastily buried as ther comrades withdrew. Probably a lot of lost graves there again.

[CROONAERT]

The worst battlefield for French casualties was probably Verdun. There were many areas covered with dead who were exposed for a long time. The French cleared the field to some extent and placed the remains in an ossuary. There is another ossuary at NotreDame de Lorette where the bones of the French dead from Vimy and that area are preserved. So , lots of dead, no graves. Very many of the French dead from the Battles of the Frontiers would have been hastily buried as ther comrades withdrew. Probably a lot of lost graves there again.

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Burial in an ossuary in France pre-dates WW1 by many wars and can be found for the Napoleonic, Crimean and (especially) the Franco-German War. It's not necessarily anything to do with amounts of unknown casualties (as known casualties also find their way into them - look at the ossuary on Kemmel Hill), more of a "way of life" (or death!) for the French of this generation.

WW1 created many more French ossuaries than just the two mentioned, but I'd suggest that the greatest in number date from the 1870-71 war (WW1 created fewer, but larger ossuaries though).

It is also possible to find civilian ossuaries where cemeteries have been cleared, a particularly interesting one being found in an old churchyard near Longuyon which dates back to the 1770's.

Dave ( ...and the most "visually shocking" ossuary of them all? - Bazeilles, near Sedan)

[Terry Denham]

Nigel

Sorry not to have got back to you within your timeframe! I have been away doing my annual week's work for local charities.

I will give you some figures later today.

[Terry Denham]

Nigel

Just to get you going on the numbers research...

There are 1073344 WW1 Commonwealth names in the CWGC database. There are 23454 cemeteries and official memorials worldwide (although this includes sites with only WW2 casualties).

In France there are 432311 WW1 Commonwealth burials and 200943 names on official memorials. These include 112040 burials of WW1 'Unknowns'. The number of CWGC sites is 2941 (inc WW2).

In Belgium there are 140219 WW1 Commonwealth burials and 102338 names on official memorials. These include 47801 burials of WW1 'Unknowns'. The number of CWGC sites is 620 (inc WW2).

CWGC also care for 11983 WW1 Foreign Nationals in France and 3696 in Belgium - mostly Germans but also French, Romanians, Russians, a few Americans etc.

These figures constantly change slightly as additions/deletions are made to the list or more 'Unknowns' are discovered etc.

The figures relate to the official period of the war - 04.08.14 to 31.08.21.

[roel22]

Aurel mentions 50.000 soldiers still missing in the Ypres region. For those who find such a figure hard to imagine for such a small region: you have to double it to get the real figure.

The Germans have no memorials to their missing -always happens when you lose a war- but the number of their missing soldiers equals the British losses. Also counting the Belgians and French who fought around Ypres, the present number of killed soldiers in Flanders with no grave at all reaches 100.000+.

Finding human remains is still daily practice. I know some farmers around Ypres who don't bother calling autorities when they find remains, even when they are complete. They cover everything up again, and that's it. Too much hassle, it only disturbs their work.

I was shocked when they told me this. But then again: when you find remains every harvest; I'm glad I don't have to make the choice...

regards

Roel

[salientguide]

NIGEL you are right that many are not blessed with a known burial place but the policy of the Imperial War Graves Commission was that there should be an individual commemoration of every British and Empire soldier. Thus you will not see a million graves but there are a million individual names recorded and displayed either on a named headstone in the cemeteries or on the appropriate memorial for those lost on land sea or air whose remains were never identified or even recovered, military or civil as in the merchant Marine. As for the other 9 million, dont forget it was a World War, not just I the Western Front, guess the Russians, Turks and those involved in the Balkans,Italy a major front that we dont hear very much about etc all got very short shrift in the way of a named and identified burial. SG

[Terry Denham]

I know you were, Nigel

If you take the accurate CWGC figures above and deduct the number of 'Unknown' burials from the number of names on memorials to the missing, you get a figure of 143440 WW1 Commonwealth men who are still 'out there' in France and Belgium or who ceased to exist.

[truthergw]

Burial in an ossuary in France pre-dates WW1 by many wars and can be found for the Napoleonic, Crimean and (especially) the Franco-German War. It's not necessarily anything to do with amounts of unknown casualties (as known casualties also find their way into them - look at the ossuary on Kemmel Hill), more of a "way of life" (or death!) for the French of this generation.

WW1 created many more French ossuaries than just the two mentioned, but I'd suggest that the greatest in number date from the 1870-71 war (WW1 created fewer, but larger ossuaries though).

It is also possible to find civilian ossuaries where cemeteries have been cleared, a particularly interesting one being found in an old churchyard near Longuyon which dates back to the 1770's.

Dave ( ...and the most "visually shocking" ossuary of them all? - Bazeilles, near Sedan)

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You are quite correct and I should have tried to express myself better. What I was trying to say was that simple arithmetic where one subtracts numbers of graves from numbers of dead would not give a meaningful answer.

[Guest Simon Bull]

Gallipoli figures are 11722 "known unto God" gravestones. 26807 names commemorated on the various memorials to the missing. Therefore, 15085 guys still "out there somewhere")

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I am confused, as I thought that there were no gravestones marking unknown graves at Gallipoli, and that all those who did not have an identified grave were just recorded on a memorial to the missing. Have I got it all wrong?