How Many

[NIGEL]

Just been reading about Flanders in yesterdays Daily Mail, and they show some pics of the graves.

In 1970 i went to Germany on a School Trip and we past places like this and i remember seeing white crosses for as far as i could see.

So my question to Terry Denham or anybody else is --- How many graves are there in the Cemetries in total???---How many Allied and how Many German.???

Also is there a large discrepancy between known Graves and missing ???

Thanks but this has always bugged me since you said over 10 million died, as i cant imagine seeing 10 million graves.

[Aurel Sercu]

Nigel,

I'm sure Terry will have mor exact figures, but if you are willing to do with mine (from memory), and only for the Ypres Salient ...

All nationalities : almost 279.000 (this also includes the German graves in CWGC cemeteries, the German and French and Belgian cemeteries, and approx. 400 WW2 men.)

In the approx. 170 CWGC cemeteries only : 140.000 ? (Not sure however if this is close to a correct number.)

Discrepancy between known graves and missing ? Maybe this is not what you expect, but I have always known : Menin Gate Memorial + Tyne Cot Memorial + Ploegsteert Memorial = approx. 100,000 names. The number of headstones "A Soldier of the Great War Known unto God" is about 45,000. So the number of men who have no grave at all is over 50,000.

But again : no problem if someone can correct these figures or give more accurate ones.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Nigel,

10,000,000 ?

I have no idea. But is this a number for the whole Western Front + Eastern front + Gallipoli etc., and all nationalities ?

Aurel

[jayne w]

OMG never actually thought about it till you posed question, Nigel. Really, Aurel , is that your calculation? makes me weep when I see gravestone saying "known only unto god"

Jayne W

[jayne w]

Nigel,,

Maybe ten million includes figure from Spanish flu?

just a thought - what do I know?

[Alan_J]

The 10 million must be total casualties for the War for all countries.

There were nearly a million British and (then) Empire killed duuring the War in all theatres. Two million Germans and nearly two million Russians, then 1.4 million French and 1.1 million from Austria-Hungary.

There are various estimates, but aropund 10 million is about the total.

The figure is horrifying.

Alan

[Alan_J]

I can't remember seeing figures specifically for the Salient, but for the Somme (figures from Martin & Mary Middlebrook's "The Somme Battlefields", there are 243 British cemeteries containing 153,443 graves, of which around a third (53,409) are unidentified. I think these are British rather than "& Empire" figures.

Middlebrook estimates that a around 107,000 British soldiers died on the Somme but do not have a known grave. This would give a figure of around 54,000 who have no grave at all.

Sobering, isn't it?

Alan

[Alan_J]

So where are the graves ????????????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, a lot of them are still there, but some nations (particularly Germanyas the losers) were not granted multiple sites in perpetuity, so they have mass graves - as do the French in some areas for other reasons.

I must admit I have no idea about the Eastern Front, or several of the other theatres, but also many no doubt lie in either unknown graves, which were lost, or where they fell still (in an unknown location) or else there was no body to bury at all.

Alan

[Alan_J]

So there are around a million UK graves in France and Belgium???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't think so. The million was British and Empire killed in all theatres. From memory the UK deaths were around 700,000. And there are many who do not have a grave at all.

According to Aurel, around 140,000 graves in the Salient, and from Martin Middlebrook, in the Somme over 150,000. Then there are the other parts of the Western Front that recieve far less attention, but still a lot of cemetereies and burials, plus other theatres such as Gallipoli, also those lost at sea, those who died and are buried back in the UK........... I would have thought that the figure in France and Belgium for UK graves must be in the region of 400,000 - 500,000.

But as you say, perhaps Terry can be a bit more definitve.

Alan

[CROONAERT]

If you're interested in the German numbers (and this list covers just WW1 and the numbers are those who have graves in KgV cemeteries only), here you are:

(Europe only)

Great Britain : 2,406

Ireland : 6

Norway : 96

Sweden: 114

Finland: 251

Denmark: 221

Holland: 85

Belgium: 136314

Luxembourg : 205

France : 766748

Switzerland : 181

Germany : 124655

Hungary: 617

Rumania : 53075

Bulgaria: 226

Greece : 68

Turkey :505

Spain : 26

Portugal :28

Italy : 13391

Former Soviet States : 115000

Former Jugoslavia: 14200

Former Czechoslavakia: 2629

The figures for WW2 are even more staggering! ( ie. Germany : 1,099,178 graves, Former Soviet States: 2,200,000+ graves !!!)

Dave.

[John_Hartley]

Nigel

From memory, I think the Germans buried their "known unto God" ones in mass graves rather than with individual headstones, with a memorial feature in the cemetery. I always find this quite poignant.

But, as Aurel notes, there's a big difference between the number of British "known unto God" headstones and the numbers on the Missing Memorials. Terry gave me the Gallipoli figures and it's probably an even higher ratio. But, whichever way you look at it, there's an awful lot of guys still "out there".

John

(Added later - Gallipoli figures are 11722 "known unto God" gravestones. 26807 names commemorated on the various memorials to the missing. Therefore, 15085 guys still "out there somewhere")

Edited 18 June , 2005 by John_Hartley

[ChrisC]

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but missing means they couldn't be found. High explosive does that to you. When I was on a field walk near Ieper last year there were obvious human remains visible on the surface of the ground. That's where the "missing" are. They are all over France and Belgium.

But as General Plumer said when dedicating the Menin Gate.

"They are not missing - they are here."

That is, I believe one of the most touching and most true dedications that I have ever heard.

C

[Alan_J]

Nigel,

Aurel was talking about the figures for the Salient only.

If the estimate of 300-400,00 on the Western Front is right, we would need to add the known graves from other theatres, plus lost at sea, died back in the UK etc.

Around a third in both the Somme and the Salient are not accounted for in the known or unknown graves.

If extrapolated for the total losses, then around 250,00 UK men have no known grave.

Alan

[CROONAERT]

From memory, I think the Germans buried their "known unto God" ones in mass graves rather than with individual headstones, with a memorial feature in the cemetery.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not specifically true John.

Thousands of "known and named" soldiers are buried in these Kameradengrabern (along with unknowns). Likewise there are thousands of "Unbekkanter Deutsche Soldat" individual graves (usually with a "shared" headstone).

The German mass graves are (along with being pretty practical) quite sybolic, representing "Comradeship beyond the realms of life".

Dave. (see the German War Graves page on my website for photos of some individual "unknown" German graves)

[john w.]

I agree, when I spoke to Aurel last year,, in the Salient there were over 50000 bodies out there still waiting to be found...

Langemark has huge mass graves

The recent finding of the Lancs Fusilier is a drop in the ocean...

John

[Aurel Sercu]

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but missing means they couldn't be found.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris,

Allow me to make a correction. (Sorry if it sounds like nitpicking.)

We know that in normal language "missing" indeed is what you write.

But with regard to Memorials etc., it has a slightly different meaning : Missing = not having a known grave.

Which means that there are two categories (for the Ypres Salient each about half).

- The men who have a grave in a cemetery, but without a name identification (because when they were buried, or later when the cemeteries were organized post-war, they could not be name identified, sometimes due to shelling). They only have the inscription A soldier of the Great War, Known Unto God (and sometimes a regimental ID)

- The men who do not even have a grave in one of the cemeteries, but are still out there somewhere in the fields.

Aurel

[Alan_J]

But what is being said is that less than 10% of the bodies were ever recovered that is very very very low

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is being said for the Somme and the Salient is that around 25-30% of deaths do not have either a known or an unknown grave.

As above, if extrapolated across the entire UK loss, this would be in the region of 200-250,000.

Alan

[CROONAERT]

But what is being said is that less than 10% of the bodies were ever recovered that is very very very low

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm losing myself a little in the maths of this here, but the way I've always thought , which seems to be backed up by some of the figures supplied on this thread, is that approxomately 45% of the missing (not the total dead) had their corpses recovered but were unidentified. This leaves approx. 55% of the missing (only!) still unaccounted for.

Dave.

[Alan_J]

This leaves approx. 55% of the missing (only!) still unaccounted for.

Dave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds about right, from what has gone before.

But in terms of total numbers of those with no known grave, I have to say my 250,000 sounds incredibly (and tragically) high, I would certainly hope it was lower than that.....

The CWGC figures for UK and Empire must be able to answer this - total commemorated as "No known grave" minus total of "Known Unto God" graves would clear it up.

Alan

[Tom Morgan]

Not the whole answer I know, but during and after the First World War the CWGC carried out nearly 774,000 burials. Over 560,000 people whose bodies could not be found were commemorated on memorials such as the Menin Gate.

Tom

[bernardmcilwaine]

has anyone suspected that the true figure for the british dead wasnt correct,i believe the british figures were kept to under a million,and the death toll was higher,bernard

[historydavid]

Army matters are not my area but I think the following figures answer at least one of Nigel's queries:

Britain - 658,700 dead; 359,150 missing

Germany - 1,600,000 dead; 103,000 missing

Total dead (all nations) - 7,996,888

Total missing (all nations) - 1,979,556

ie Total casualties (excluding wounded) = approx 10,000,000

This 10m figure is probably low because there is no figure for Russia included in the missing total, but figures for dead and wounded are on a par with Germany so it is reasonable to suppose that the Russians had at least another 100,000 missing. Other nations without missing numbers wouldn't affect the overall total by very much.

These figures are taken from www.firstworldwar.com/

Best wishes

David

[bernardmcilwaine]

i think the government lied about the true casualty rate for britain,nobody will ever know how many really died because its impossible to prove,and the government knew this,thats why i find it hard to understand why all the service records from ww1 got destroyed,i think they left them in that army warehouse hoping that it would get bombed,its very strange that they went to all the trouble of removing anything of value of all descriptions,even going to the trouble of removing church doors,stained glass windows,docs,papers you name it,all were safely stored,EXCEPT the ww1 records,i think theres a lot more men lying in the grounds of battlefields than they are letting on about,bernard

[Sue Light]

i think the government lied about the true casualty rate for britain, thats why i find it hard to understand why all the service records from ww1 got destroyed, i think they left them in that army warehouse hoping that it would get bombed, its very strange that they went to all the trouble of removing anything of value of all descriptions, even going to the trouble of removing church doors, stained glass windows, docs, papers you name it, all were safely stored, EXCEPT the ww1 records, i think theres a lot more men lying in the grounds of battlefields than they are letting on about,bernard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aaaah.... I remember it well now, that was the occasion when the Government finally woke up to the fact that they would never be able to conceal all those bodies in the vault under Thiepval, and realised that bones were not sufficient to provide firm foundations for the Menin Gate. They were getting worried that after 25 years of asking questions, the families of the men they had tried to hide were finally preparing to storm Arnside Street Walworth, in an effort to uncover the truth about their loved ones.

THE RECORDS MUST BE DESTROYED AT ALL COSTS.....

So, one clear night, they set some lights on the roof of number 40, and sent an urgent signal to the Luftwaffe, and waited.... waited - but ALAS! Their aim was so poor they could only manage some minor damage to St. Paul's. So Albert Twigg, A.R.P. [but really an undercover Government agent so secret that the truth has never been told] set off with his box of matches and a taper to finish the job...

The families were so enraged that they had still not found the truth about their loved ones... they were out for blood... and in their panic to conceal the dreadful figures, even more bombing raids were ordered by the British Government, targetting the homes of those who threatened their downfall...

And that's the reason for so many civilian casualties in London during WW2... otherwise why on earth would they have hit 27 Balaclava Terrace... 13 High Street, Southwark... 101a Corporation Row...

[Terry_Reeves]

Sue

I'm so glad the story is out in the open. Albert Twig was my Great Grandfather. His recollections and original orders,were written on rice paper and left inside the matchbox he used to start the fire. He was supposed to have memorised and eaten them, but Albert being Albert.....

The cover-up also explains why there no homes "fit for heros", there wasn't any need for them. Except that two of the biggest house building progammes of the 20th Century took place in the 1920's and 30's.

Terry Reeves