Battalions running away.

[truthergw]

I suppose one has received orders to retire and the other hasn`t? Phil B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At what level would an order to fall back be legitimate? Would an order have to be given by a commissioned officer or could an NCO give it? If a senior NCO fell back and his men followed him would that be classed as running away?

Since individual troops will not recieve orders, nor expect to, men will presumably do what they see their neighbours and close companions do. If a man sees his fellows start to fall back, I feel he would be justified in following suit.

[Mark Hone]

Peoples' reactions vary to the stress of combat Some of the Portuguese at the Battle of the Lys fought very well, particularly MG crews. Others 'bugged out' immediately, in some cases pinching the bikes of the Cyclist Battalions being sent to reinforce them to speed their escape! Men running away is one of those horrible facts of military life (blue on blue, killing of prisoners etc) that nobody likes to admit to. A fascinating read is the volume of Sir Denis Forman's autobiography dealing with his World War II attachment to the Battle Training School run by Lionel wigram. Wigram carried out a careful (eyewitness) analysis of platoon level combat in Sicily. He concluded that when any platoon came under fire about half a dozen blokes would simply clear off. Most would take cover and wait for someone to do something while the platoon CO and a few 'gutfull men' (as Wigram described them) would take the initiative and carry out effective action against the enemy. This was very similar to the findings of SLA Marshall in his analysis of US Pacific actions. When wigram published his report it contained a chapter entitled 'Panic and Hysteria'. This alarmed and enraged his superiors and was apparently brought to the attention of Montgomery, who demoted Wigram. A classic case of shooting the messenger!

[PhilB]

At what level would an order to fall back be legitimate? Would an order have to be given by a commissioned officer or could an NCO give it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I reckon that if a private is told to retire by a L/Cpl, that`s legitimate.(As far as the private`s concerned) Phil B

[truthergw]

I reckon that if a private is told to retire by a L/Cpl, that`s legitimate.(As far as the private`s concerned)  Phil B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suspect we both agree on this one. What I am really trying to point out is that it is difficult to distinguish between running away and retiring/falling back/strategic withdrawal.....The distinction will be made much later and far away from the events,usually by someone with an axe to grind.

[PhilB]

The distinction will be made much later and far away from the events,usually by someone with an axe to grind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suppose the commander of any unit that runs has the greatest incentive to call it a planned retirement? Phil B

[per ardua per mare per terram]

One of the mottoes of the East Kent’s is “Steady the Buffs” which comes from a close run incident in their history.

It happens, who of us can tell what we would do under the conditions in the front line? The bigger test, surely, is not who ran or retreated but whether they rallied when called to do so.

[Cliff. Hobson]

I remember reading the history of the 5th Battalion the Sherwood Foresters when they were in Sanctuary Wood and the Germans attacked the unit on their flank who retreated through Foresters Lines.

The retreat was summed up by a Private of the Foresters who said "They had an Home to Mother look on their faces"

[per ardua per mare per terram]

T/Brig Gen GW St G Grogan and T/Brig Gen Coffin both earned their VCs for rallying their troops, by personal example, at or in front of the front line.

[PhilB]

PAPMPT, I assume this is a post about senior officers doing what Brig Gen MacArthur did in going out in frnt of the front line?

From what I read, Grogan was a colonel at the time and rode his horse along the temporary line while Coffin walked from shell hole to shell hole, also in a temporary front line. There`s little doubt that they got into the front line from time to time, but still no evidence of generals going "out front" though!

Phil B

[Michael]

One of the mottoes of the East Kent’s is “Steady the Buffs” which comes from a close run incident in their history.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you expand on this please

mick

[Edward_N_Kelly]

From this site:The Queen's Own Buffs

(It is an amalgamation of the associations for what has become The Queen's Regiment - The Buffs (Royal East Kent Regiment) had amalgamated with The Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment (1MAR61) to form The Queen's Own Buffs, The Royal Kent Regiment who in turn united with The Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment, The Royal Sussex Regiment, and The Middlesex Regiment (Duke of Cambridge's Own), (31DEC66))

In April 1858, 2nd Battalion The Buffs sailed for Malta. Here they shared Florian Barracks with 1st Royal North British (subsequently Scots) Fusiliers. The adjutant of the 2nd Battalion had previously been a sergeant-major with the Fusiliers and bore a name that was to gain greater regimental fame in 1916, Cotter. He was eager that his raw battalion should shine on the barrack square and was apt to use the exhortation, “Steady the Buffs; the Fusiliers are watching you.”  This greatly amused the Fusiliers and they called out “Steady The Buffs!” on the slightest provocation, both in Malta and when the two battalions met again in Dublin a few years later. The phrase caught on and was soon used by all and sundry when ever the Buffs marched by.

Kipling used the phrase in his tale, in play form, of Poor Dear Mamma.

Later when the 1st Battalion was on the North West Frontier  as part of the Malakand Field Force. Sir Bindon Blood, the Force Commander described the steadiness of The Buffs as “admirable”. It also impressed Winston Churchill. In his Story of the Malakand Field Force, he wrote of The Buffs.

“ In the fighting of the week they made it clear that the British Infantry battalion is the backbone of every mixed brigade, and they shared the Guides Infantry one of those enviable reputations for steadiness which are so hard to gain, and so easy to lose on active service, Steady indeed The Buffs.”

(The above notes are taken from The Buffs by Gregory Blaxland)

Cheers

Edward

[Edward_N_Kelly]

I have no doubt that some units did cast their arms away and did take up a "rapid advance to the rear". It has undoubtly happened in all armies during all eras from time to time. It can happen to complete units or to just sub-units or to an individual.

Why it happens can vary from poor training, bad leadership, poor or non-existent equipment, bad morale (a reflection of all 3 of the former and/or "lack of belief in the cause"). It can infect adjacent units or they can survive the loss of their flank(s) and/or retire in good order.

Given the horrendous conditions under which a war is conducted it is more of a miracle that troops DO stand and fight and even attempt to or succeed in advancing (none more so than in the Great War).

In one of my former lives I have read the military record of a WO2 from an Australian Infantry Battalion of the "last big one". He was found twice wandering the baggage lines with the Battalion's reinforcements whom he was supposed to lead forward (at crucial times in 2 very crucial battles in the Western Desert). While charged with various offences they could not prove a thing - "he become lost in the confusion of battle" (though he was posted out of the unit suffering from "shell shock" after the second occassion and sent onto a second line unit after treatment).

He had reached the end of his tether but the unit was incapable/unable to come to that conclusion and/or he was too proud to advise them of such. He was on a pension for a nervous condition when I encountered him.

Cheers

Edward

[Robert Dunlop]

but still no evidence of generals going "out front" though!

Phil, one of the best examples is Brigadier-General Fitzclarence. His story illustrates why this was a really bad idea. During the Battle of Nonne Bosschen, the Prussian Guard gained a foothold in 500 yards of British trenches. From the Second Division's history:

'A counter-attack was arranged to take place at 1 am. [This failed] Another attempt was made later by the 1st Irish Guards, 2nd Grenadiers, and Munster Fusiliers under Brigadier-General Fitzclarence. As soon as the leading platoon of No 3 Company, which was the leading company, had passed the farm here on the road, the enemy opened a heavy rifle fire on to the right flank of the platoon, presumably near the trench which was to be taken by General Fitzclarence's troops. It was almost as soon as the enemy began to open fire that General Fitzclarence was killed. He was leading the column, and was one of the first to come under fire.'

This was not a war in which generals could or should be in the thick of the fighting. Quite apart from the risk of being killed, there is the more significant problem of the interference with command perspective. Attention can become fixed on the point of observation, to the detriment of what might be happening elsewhere in the general's command zone. I wonder if this may have happened to General Morland, whose performance as GOC Xth Corps, July 1 1916, is being discussed in another thread. Far better to help all men in the ranks to think and act like a general on the battlefield. Give them all the information that you can about the battle, including the significance. Give them the training to know how to achieve their local objectives in this context, without constraining them to a rigid plan. Give them the tools and the support they need to get the job done. Plumer is a great example of this on the British side.

Robert

[Blackblue]

Wasn't there a post somewhere last week regarding an Officer in Gallipoli who rallied some troops that were "retreating without orders" and brought them back to the front line having threatened, or actually having shot someone, and winning a VC in the process?

The Chap is 2Lt George Moor, 2nd Hampshires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Raymond_Dallas_Moor

Rgds

Tim D

[Petroc]

Don't know how relevant this is to the discussion, but I believe Malcolm Brown's 'Imperial War Museum Book of the Western Front' contains anecdotal evidence, supplied by an officer, of a significant portion of a Brigade (doesn't specify Battalion) breaking and retiring (can't remember which or when, the book is not to hand), at which point the officer concerned, together with HQ troops and Details, formed a 'battle-block' and forced them to return to the action

[jim_davies]

Westlake's "British Regiments At Gallipoli" appears to quote the War Diary of the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers during the fighting for Scimitar Hill:

"Part of the front line fell back, half way down the hill in disorder, suffering heavy casualities"

The quote continues with how the troops were rallied and returned to the attack.

Jim

[Paul Hodges]

Don't know how relevant this is to the discussion, but I believe Malcolm Brown's 'Imperial War Museum Book of the Western Front' contains anecdotal evidence, supplied by an officer, of a significant portion of a Brigade (doesn't specify Battalion) breaking and retiring (can't remember which or when, the book is not to hand), at which point the officer concerned, together with HQ troops and Details, formed a 'battle-block' and forced them to return to the action

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IIRC this is General Crozier's claim, in The Men I Killed to have shot c 200 of the aforementioned Portuguese to stem the rout.

Always very difficult to know what to think about this sort of stuff. Certainly easily dismissed as boastful egotism of the worst type. But... could just be exagerration with a core of truth. Difficult to know one way or the other now.

[Petroc]

I agree, this is, I know, an incredibly difficult subject to which one may apply undoubted truths; particularly when we are dealing with a group of people who shared characteristics which applied to the whole (with 'caveats' obviously), nameley, that wonderfully (or, depending on one's point of view, irritatingly), stubborness of emotion that prevents the average Briton from expressing anything heartfelt unless it is articulated in the form of a dirty song or a drunken joke, the in-built and reinforced tradition of minding one's own regimental sensibilities, the very strong impetus to avoid 'slagging off' one's mates, etc; despite postings from some of the more esteemed members of this fantastic forum, who may have had the privilege of speaking directly to the survivors of the war, the rest of us are left with the printed word and, as a consequence, the ability (necessity?) to approach the conflict from a purely historical point of view; that said, there must have been those present in the ranks and amongst the officer class who, for whatever reason, threw away their military responsibilities in favour of that natural human reaction to 'save yer skin'. I am sure that this went on in...well, where shall we begin...? Waterloo? Austerlitz? Bunker Hill? Khe Sanh? Mohacs?.....but it is a subject that we HAVE to addresss in the FWW; only by accepting all aspects can we fully appreciate the sacrifice of those who fell in our names and give them their collective and individual respect.

[Guest richpics5174]

About the Buffs... the incident that is probably most usually confused with that motto "Steady the Buffs" is the battle of Albuhera.

http://www.the-queens-own-buffs.com/Bodyfi...y_albuhera.html

Basically what happened is that a brigade of British infantry was standing against withering attacks by French infantry when they were caught by a rainstorm and surprised by a flanking attack of lancers which nearly wiped them out.

At this battle another battalion - 57th Middlesex - was also fighting gallantly. Their colonel Inglis was killed shouting 'Die Hard 57th!' which eventually passed into the English language thanks in part to the Bruce Willis movies (or so pop culture would say - Of course it was in use way before them!).

There's a famous painting from Albuhera called 'Steady the Fifes and Drums' - again these are the Die Hards/Fighting Villains of the 57th Foot.

http://www.thediehards.co.uk/images/drums%20and%20fifes.jpg

The phrase is discussed here:

http://www.digiserve.com/peter/buffs/stbuffs.htm

Take note - the 3rd Buffs DID NOT serve at Waterloo. They did serve during the occupation AFTER the battle.

The Buffs - originally the 'Buff Howards' to distinguish them from the 19th Foot whose colonel was also a Howard and today carries their moniker with pride as their official title of 'The Green Howards' (if this isn't confusing enough, it's okay. Even King George II the last British monarch to lead troops into battle at Dettingen 1743 confused the 31st Foot with the 3rd because they both had distinguishing buff colored cuff and lapel facings. He shouted to them "Bravo Buffs!" only to be told that they were not the 'old Buffs' of the 3rd Foot but the newer 31st Foot. Undeterred he shouted, "Well then, Bravo Young Buffs!" which gave them their nickname) - the Buffs were a bit of a hard-luck regiment sometimes. Another interesting incident was at the battle of Talavera. Lord Hill was checking his battalions when he heard firing nearby (the French made a surprise evening attack) and he remarked that it was probably 'the old Buffs making some kind of blunder as usual.' It turned out he was the one who was mistaken when a French soldier tried to grab the reins of his horse and his brigade major was shot out of the saddle and he was lucky to escape with his life.

Anyways... hope this has added a little color to the discussion

Cheers,

Richard

[SharonWitherden]

Not so much running away as told to go home.

The man in the middle of the photo is my late grandfather. It was taken when he was stationed in Germany during the 1960's. The two men either side are German dog handlers. Karl (on the left) served on the Western Front during WW2, and right at the end of the war his battalion was facing a big battle against American and British forces. His Battalion commander lined up all the men, told them all that Hitler was basically an idiot, the war was lost and that they could fight this battle but a lot of men would die for no real reason. So the commander told them all to go home back to Germany. Karl who had a bicycle, cycled his way back home to Germany.

I can give no specifics/ corrobation for this but this is the story told by Karl to my grandfather.

Incidentally, the man on the right was Rudi Price - he was one of the few Germans to make it back from the battle of Stalingrad.

Sharon

[Desmond7]

I also believe the infamous Mr. Crozier also claimed to have turned a party of men of the 36th (Ulster) Division back at pistol point on 1st July when they 'fell back in some disorder' towards their own lines in mid afternoon.

It has also been stated 'somewhere' that one officer actually fired upon the group?

On a separate note - I spoke to a R. Innis. Fus. of WW2 vintage who told me that a well respected NCO who had won the MM for gallantry (and, according to my source thoroughly deserved it) did a runner when his platoon was hit by mortar fire.

My source said he came back after a little while in rather sheepish fashion to be told (by my source) "You're a stupid f..ker .. you had more chance of getting hit running about like that."

The Sgt. told him he had just 'lost control' ... the same man apparently served well until end of hostilities!

I think it was said during the ACW that a man could be a hero and a coward several times over in one short action!

I'm certainly not the man to judge!!!!

Des