Battalions running away.

[PhilB]

I`m on the 4th of Bernard Cornwell`s US Civil War novels now (Excellent read). The hero is given command of a Punishment Battalion that had run away (skedaddled) in its first action, it`s original State title having been taken away. His job was to discipline and train them up to battle standards.

I haven`t read of any British battalion that ran from action in WW1, but I suppose it wouldn`t have been publicized if it had happened. Still, the reputation of such a battalion would have been known at the time and would have been the subject of some scorn from other units. Does anyone know of any battalions that were so (fairly or unfairly) stigmatized? Phil B

PS I should add that the attitude of the novel seems to be that there are no bad battalions - just bad officers.

[7:29am]

PS I should add that the attitude of the novel seems to be that there are no bad battalions - just bad officers.

Alexander Kent in his novels says it another way, there are not good ships there are only good men..

And don't you think there are no good or bad decisions there are only consequences? Given all the technology today things still don't go to plan, it seems like the decisions taken become good or bad with age. At the time i am sure 99.99% of those involved believed they were taking the right action given the task in hand and the available resources.

[John_Hartley]

Phil

I suppose there might be fine line between "running away" and being "forced to withdraw under heavy pressure". If you get my drift.....

John

[7:29am]

one is a command and the other auto-initiative i guess!!

[PhilB]

Thanks, gents, but the neighbouring battalions would be quick to distinguish between command/auto-initiative and running away/forced to withdraw, don`t you think? And infanteers have very long memories! Phil B

[steve fuller]

If you punish a Btn enough during battle, regardless of what their officers, training or the soldier's ego's say, yes they will "break". Even veterans break - didnt Napoleans elite guard do just that at Waterloo until they regrouped and conducted a fighting withdrawal? Didnt the whole Persian army do just that when Alexander charged Darius's chariot & pegged it at Guacamole (cant spell it at all, so closest word I could think of!!! Sorry!)

Suppose mass surrender is another form of running, difference being the guys in question havent got the choice to run, so have to give up. The 12th irish during Kaisers battle (I believe - if I understood the books well enough) even gave it up, and they were veterans by then (Des will correct me if Im wrong - hope I havent dissed them).

& lets face it, all in all, who could blame them sometimes?

[SMG65]

My Gt Uncle who passed away two years ago was an Eighth Army veteran in the Second World War. He fought with 6 Bn York & Lancs and went through the desert and Italy, finishing in Austria. He had opinions, but then again, after he what he went through he was entitled to them. He didn't like being classed as a 'D-Day Dodger' and he said the troops fighting in France and Belgium had it easy because they could dig a slit trench at night and they couldn't in Italy due to the ground so they had to find other means for cover.

He was always honest and told me of the time that the unit were in the line and they knew that the war was drawing to an end. He said that both sides were shelling and that there was a lot of gunfire. Some of the men were superstitious and thought that they would be killed so near the end of the war.

Some men got the 'wind up' and without being attacked retreated from the line. The whole company followed and it wasn't until they were in the rear that the officers got them to go back in the line.

The point was that this was a veteran battalion as they didn't get raw replacements in Italy, they just cannibalised units.

But technically thay ran when not under attack. but their battle honours show that they were a good and brave battalion.

If it happened in the Second World War then it surely happened in the Great War. But it would be wrong to draw a negative opinion of a battalion in what might be a moment of madness.

SEAN

[PhilB]

Of course it would be wrong for us to cast aspersions on the steadfastness of the men of WW1. It would be interesting, however, to know if the men of that time were so doing? Phil B

[Jim Strawbridge]

If my memory serves me right I read somewhere that the Portuguese were involved in WW1 and provided their army to the allies. But when the fighting actually started there was lack of discipline and will to fight and they disappeared and went home. I do not wish to cast a false impression if I am not correct so can anyone elaborate?

[Max]

Jim

If they did go home it was after the German spring offensive of 1918 as the two Portugese divisions under British command where very badly mauled. There is a memorial to these brave men at Couture near the French/Belgium border.

This link provides more info http://www.answers.com/topic/portugal-in-the-great-war

and this one is more in depth http://www.worldwar1.com/france/portugal.htm

Andy

[squirrel]

Wasn't there a post somewhere last week regarding an Officer in Gallipoli who rallied some troops that were "retreating without orders" and brought them back to the front line having threatened, or actually having shot someone, and winning a VC in the process?

At Loos in 1915 on Hill 70 there were a couple of "unauthorised withdrawels" by troops of the 15th Division that had suffered severe casualties and lost their Officers.

I seem to remember reading accounts of the German Offensives in early 1918 of units withdrawing but usually explained by the lack of communication, not knowing if flanking units were there or not, enemy infiltration and losing Officers as casualties.

Understandable in those circumstances I would think.

[steve fuller]

My Gt Uncle who passed away two years ago was an Eighth Army veteran in the Second World War. He fought with 6 Bn York & Lancs and went through the desert and Italy, finishing in Austria.

SEAN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Funny that, as my Grandfather was in the Royal Tanks Corps in the same theatres as your Gt Uncle. He told me about a similar story, but from the perspective of his troop (what was left of it was in support of the front line infantry) sitting on their tanks wandering what was going on, seeing as though they could hear no gunfire.

Remember him saying that he silenced his boys who were grumbling about the withdrawing men, as theyd lost a lot of tanks & crews to get that far. He was adamant that "if they wanned to go back'ards, then they knew the whys and wherefores, and it werent for us to quibble about it"!! He got 5 medals & only really spoke when he felt he needed to, so his chaps just shut up & watched.

His story finished saying that a few hours later, they all trudged back the way theyd come, and that if the "Gerries" had known about the hole in the line, his unit would have been facing annihilation, as they were very weak by then & wouldnt have been able to hold a half company, let alone any larger group.

Yet he didnt once criticise them, bless his heart. Wander if it was the same event, although I guess this happened more than once, as you say, so small odds.

[Desmond7]

12th Royal Irish Rifles did go into the bag almost wholesale on March 21/18.

Usual form for that day .. a few half decent stands here and there - dawning realisation that Fritz is knocking on your back door and there ain't much hope of relief.

For you the war is over!

In terms of 12th R I Rifles being 'veterans' ... mmmmm

More a case of the 'old battalion' number but very greatly changed from the 'originals' .. most of them seem to have bought their tickets to the cemetery or blighty in 16 and 17.

NOW in Devil's advocate mode .... what about the concept of 'Battle Hardened Troops'

I've come to the opinion that the last people you want for a major assault or indeed a stout defence is a 'battle hardened' force.

They are all to aware of the realities of war and thus I reckon there would be more chance of such troops adopting a 'common sense' attitude.

Now with a brand new, well trained bunch you can chuck them at anything! They don't know any better.

Discuss!

[squirrel]

Desmond7,

sure you are not contradicting yourself there?

You say that the 12th Royal Irish Rifles were not battle hardened troops and yet then you say that you wouldn't want the latter for an attack or stout defence. This seems to infer that either would surrender when the situation became a bit sticky or am I misreading your post?

Incidentally, For You The War Is Over is the title of a book written by the actor Sam Kydd about his experiences in the defence of Calais with Queen Victoria's Rifles in 1940. They had regulars and Territorials there,

KRR's, Rifle Brigade etc and they didn't "retire".

[Guest]

If my memory serves me right I read somewhere that the Portuguese were involved in WW1 and provided their army to the allies. But when the fighting actually started there was lack of discipline and will to fight and they disappeared and went home. I do not wish to cast a false impression if I am not correct so can anyone elaborate?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Portuguese in the line at 2nd Ypres certainly broke when the Germans subjected them to a gas attack, for which of course they had no training or equipment.

The Canadains are generally credited with standing firm and covering this breach, but I don't know if any adjacent units pulled back when the Portuguese broke.

[Desmond7]

Not at all .. I'm playing Devil's Advocate!!

Remember my case is a 'bunch of brand new, well trained troops' ... perhaps I should have qualified this by stating 'which had never seen action before' ...

I.E. I'm talking about an entire 'fresh unit' ... not a battalion which had been shot up, reinforced, shot up, reinforced etc etc as 12th Royal Irish had been.

Cheers

[Neil Burns]

The Portuguese in the line at 2nd Ypres certainly broke when the Germans subjected them to a gas attack, for which of course they had no training or equipment.

The Canadains are generally credited with standing firm and covering this breach, but I don't know if any adjacent units pulled back when the Portuguese broke.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Angie,

Those weren't Portugese troops at 2nd Ypres, they were French Colonials. Portugal didn't enter the war until 1916 and didn't send troops until 1917 (if memory serves, rarely does these day!)

Take care,

Neil

[PhilB]

The Canadains are generally credited with standing firm and covering this breach, but I don't know if any adjacent units pulled back when the Portuguese broke.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It`s my understanding that the Canadians didn`t actually come under gas attack, though they were instrumental in stabilizing the line. The map indicates that all the French and Portuguese troops who were gas attacked fell back. I don`t think that anyone could be blamed for retiring before clouds of chlorine when you`ve never seen it before and have no protection. I wouldn`t class that as running away. Phil B

[squirrel]

Desmond7

I reckon it would depend on how good their NCO's were; experienced NCO's with "green" troops might stand it.

[steve fuller]

Just been reading Moores See How They Ran, about the Portugese. Interesting stuff.

9th April attack - 7 German divisions were unleashed onto the Portugese after a ferocious barrage. Seems that they folded on the whole - some gave up before the Germans even reached them without firing a shot, yet one Btn held until 11am, and having run out of ammo, they "made their last stand with the bayonet" until overcome. By 1340, the 2nd Port' Div commander reported "Whole of division either lost or scattered".

"2 Btns of cyclists were rushed in, ignore the fleeing Portugese & fought desperatley for a time against swarms of Saxons & Bavarians". The 50th & 51st Divs were rushed in to plug the gap. The 55th Div peeled its left flank back to cover the hole the Portugese had left & "mauled the germans badly as the 51st hurried forward. On the north flank of the gap, the 18th Welch & 13th E Surreys were butchered by the hail of bullets from all directions". Yet they held when bolstered by reserves. Seems the 55th to the south held, but the 40th to the north had to peel their right flank back about 5 miles to Bac St Maur / Sailly on the river Lys, whilst holding the left flank to the 34th Div.

OK, the Port' folded without doubt, but they were an Army full of troops that didnt really understand why they were there & were called "the amatuer warriors" by Moore more than once. Some even rallied & went back with British troops to defend with them apparently.

[CROONAERT]

The map indicates that all the French and Portuguese troops who were gas attacked fell back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There weren't any Portugese troops at 2nd Ypres! (Well, not in Portugese uniform, anyway!).

The Canadian's weren't directly attacked with gas, but they did move into a chemically impregnated area to plug the gap. Their time came a day or so later.

Dave.

[PhilB]

There weren't any Portugese troops at 2nd Ypres! (Well, not in Portugese uniform, anyway!).

Dave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For Portuguese, read Algerian! Phil B

[truthergw]

I`m on the 4th of Bernard Cornwell`s US Civil War novels now (Excellent read). The hero is given command of a Punishment Battalion that had run away (skedaddled) in its first action, it`s original State title having been taken away. His job was to discipline and train them up to battle standards.

    I haven`t read of any British battalion that ran from action in WW1, but I suppose it wouldn`t have been publicized if it had happened. Still, the reputation of such a battalion would have been known at the time and would have been the subject of some scorn from other units. Does anyone know of any battalions that were so (fairly or unfairly) stigmatized? Phil B

PS I should add that the attitude of the novel seems to be that there are no bad battalions - just bad officers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Purely as a matter of interest, how would one distinguish between a unit breaking under unsustainable pressure and a unit running away ?

[PhilB]

Purely as a matter of interest, how would one distinguish between a unit breaking under unsustainable pressure and a unit running away ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suppose one has received orders to retire and the other hasn`t? Phil B

[Max]

At Loos in 1915 on Hill 70 there were a couple of "unauthorised withdrawels" by troops of the 15th Division that had suffered severe casualties and lost their Officers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Strangely Hill 70 during the battle of Loos was the place where the exact opposite of what we are discussing supposedly took place. It seems that the 9/KOYLI moved forward independent of word of command in support of the DLI who were taking a real mauling on Hill 70. I think it is a load of old pony myself (and I speak as a Yorkshireman), it is much more likely that a junior officer got above his station, with his blood up and in the absence of his Lt-col ordered the advance.

The regimental history states:

"Those people of Yorkshire, whose feelings are stirred by evidence of the sporting spirit in the lads of that county, should indeed find their hearts warmed by the story of the two KOYLI battalions (note it has changed from just the 9/KOYLI to also include the 10th) of young miners, who had been forced during the day to witness the slaughter of their gallant cousins of Durham county in their repeated attacks, and who, becoming restive in inaction, poured over the top without word of command, like colts at the starting gate that break the tape and get away down the course before the starters flag is down."

Andy