Bedfordshire Regmnt War Diaries

[damien7]

Hi Steve

Could I trouble you for any info on the actions of the 4th Battalion on 1/9/18 as this local chap 12582 Sergeant William Alfred Powell 4th Battalion was KIA on this day.

Thanks

Damien

[carninyj]

Thanks for the material. I do know quite a bit about him, but like all on the Forum no doubt, I'm always looking for more.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Carninyj

[steve fuller]

Hi Steve

Could I trouble you for any info on the actions of the 4th Battalion on 1/9/18 as this local chap 12582 Sergeant William Alfred Powell 4th Battalion was KIA on this day.

Thanks

Damien

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Damien

He's not in there by name but heres the entry:

4th BTN WAR DIARY FOR SEPTEMBER 1918

1 Sep 1918 - Hindenburg Support Line near Henin-sur-Cojeul Battn marched from BOIRY to N.34 central near HENIN in the Hundenburg Support Line. Hostile aircraft raid, Lieut M.Brawn killed 3 Other Ranks killed 11 Other Ranks wounded and 26 horses & mules killed. 2/Lt W.Johnson 2/Lt A.E.Iliffe and 119 Other Ranks joined.

Looks like he was caught up in the Aircraft raid perhaps? Have looked before & after the date but no mention there either Im afraid. The nearest mentions of casualties & actions either side are a report on a failed attack 21-27 August and 7 Sept when they lost 3 men holding trenches. He was likely involved in the August attack, so have included it here. The Operational report is as follows:

4TH BATTALION BEDFORDSHIRE REGIMENT REPORT ON OPERATIONS AUGUST 20th. - 28th, 1918 inclusive. Reference Sheets 57 D. and 57 C.

1. On the night 20/21 Aug. 1918 the Battalion marched from billets in SOUASTRE to LEEDS TRENCH in L.20 c. and d. Considerable difficulty was experienced in reaching this position in the FONQUEVILLERS [sic] - LA BRAYELLE FARM road was blocked by lorries and a tank. All the Companies were in LEEDS TRENCH by about 4.15 a.m.

2. The Battalion formed up on the East side of LEEDS TRENCH in artillery formations A Coy. on the right, C Coy. on the left. "B" Coy. in the centre, "D" Coy. in support in rear of "B" Coy. The 7th. Bn. Royal Fusiliers were on the left.

3. At 5.25 a.m. the Battalion commenced to move forward behind the 189th Inf. Brigade. A thick fog hung over the ground making it difficult to keep direction. The Battalion marched in artillery formation North of BUCQUOY and South of ABLAINZEVILLE [sic], passed over the enemy front line, and proceeded in S.E. direction to leave LOGEAST WOOD on the North.

4. When the Battalion reached L.g.a., the enemy put down a smoke screen which mingled with the fog and made it impossible to see more than two or three yards ahead. The Battalion became somewhat disorganised in consequence and touch was lost for a time with the leading Brigade. Five tanks came to their assistance and it was arranged that 2 tanks should proceed on the south of the trench running through L.6.c., G.2.e., G.9 and 15, and 3 tanks on the north of the trench. two companies of the Battalion followed the tanks in artillery formation on the north side of the trench and two companies on the south side, in each case one company being in front and one company in support in rear. In this manner it was hoped to keep direction as the trench led to about the centre of that part of the ACHIET-LE-GRAND - MIRAUMONT railway, which formed the objective of the 189th Brigade and from which the 4th Bedfords were to attack their objective.

5. The Battalion proceeded in this manner dealing with any small parties of the enemy who had been left by the leading Brigade, and reached a line about G.2.d.2.3. to G.8.b.0.5. Here it was found that the leading Brigades had not been able owing to the fog to make good the ACHIET-LE-GRAND - MIRAUMONT railway.

6. Orders were received that the 190th Brigade would consolidate a line G.14.a.9.9., G.9.c.0.8., G.3.d.2.2., A.27.d.5.1. The 4th Bedfords consolidated a line from G.9.c.0.8 to G.3.d.2.2. - "A" Coy. on the right front, "C" Coy. on the left front, "D" Coy. in support and "B" Coy. in reserve. The Battalion passed the night in these positions.

7. At about 5.30 a.m. 22/8/18 about 100 enemy were seen leaving huts at about G.9.b.0.8. advancing in a S.W. direction to attack post at about G.9.a.6.2. They were observed by "C" Coy. on the left, fired on and dispersed - 9 dead were counted. At 6.50 a.m. a party of the enemy approached a post at G.9.a.8.1. held by the right company ("A"). They also were driven back. 2/Lieut. FLORY who was in charge of the post was killed. Later in the day strong counter-attacks were made by the enemy on the 7th R. Fus. but were repulsed.

8. On 23/8/18, the 37th Division passed through the line we held to attack the ACHIET-LE-GRAND railway and to take up a position East of BIHUCOURT. The 4th Bedfords were then withdrawn in artillery formation to LEEDS TRENCH, which was reached in the evening.

9. On 24/8/18, the Battalion marched in artillery formation to assembly positions about G.21.b. Here the night was spent. At 5 a.m. 25/8/18 the Battalion proceeded in artillery formation: "D" Coy. on the right with "B" Coy. in support: "C" Coy. on the left with "A" Coy. in support, behind the 1st. Artists who followed the 189th Brigade. The 188th and 189th Brigades were to take LA BARQUE and THILLOY and the 190th Brigade were to pass through them to RIENCOURT. the companies were echeloned in order to protect the right flank.

10. The Battalion proceeded round the South side of LOUPART WOOD and reached the main BAPAUME-ALBERT Road at about M.12.a. The 188th and 189th Brigades had penetrated into LA BARQUE but were held up by M.G. fire. Meanwhile the right flank was exposed and as M.G. fire was coming from that direction, it was decided to form a defensive flank facing S.W. along the line roughly M.12.d.7.7. to M.5.d.7.5. The 1st Artists Rifles held the line from M.12. central to the main road, and the 7th R. Fus. prolonged the line in a North Westerly direction. In the evening attacks were made on the 188th and 189th Brigades, but were repulsed, and the dispositions of the 4th Bedfords remained unchanged. The night was spent in this position.

11. On 26/8/18 the 188th and 189th Brigades attacked THILLOY and LIGNY THILLOY from the sunken road called RED CUT running north and south through N.1.a. and c. and N.7.a. The 4th Bedfords formed up in artillery formation 700 yards behind them ready to follow them. The attacking troops were unable to get forward and the night was spent in these positions.

12. At 11 a.m. on 27/8/18, 4th Bedfords assembled in RED CUT to attack THILLOY and LIGNY THILLOY. The 7th R. Fus. were on the left, the boundary running along line from N.1.c.2.3. parallel to grid to N.2.c.3.3. Boundary on south was grid running through N.7.8. and 9. D.Coy. was on the right, "B" Coy. in centre, and "C" Coy. on left each with 3 platoons in front line and 1 in reserve. "A" Coy. in reserve behind "B" Coy.

13. The barrage started at 11 a.m. and lifted forward at 11.3 moving back at the rate of 100 yards every 3 mins. Shells fell into the assembly positions which were thought to come from our own guns firing short. On leaving the sunken road heavy M.G. fire was encountered from the front and the left and especially from the right flank. It had been arranged that 21st. Division would attack on our right, but their attack was cancelled at the last moment and our right flank was thus exposed to extremely heavy M.G. fire from the high ground in M.7.d., M.8.c. and further south.

14. The line was held up and the positions occupied were then roughly a line from about N.1.e.8.2. - N.7.a.9.4. - N.7.a.4.0. No further advance was possible as M.G. fire from THILLOY and the ridges on the right was so heavy. Snipers were very active and claimed many victims.

15. At 6 p.m. after 1 hours bombardment by heavy artillery and preceded by an 18 poundered [sic] barrage the advance was continued again. Just previous to zero one of our heavy shells fell in the midst of the centre Coy. and did much damage. Some of "C" Coy. on the left entered THILLOY and went right through, with their right on the cross roads at about N.2.e.8.0. The left of the centre company was met again by very heavy M.G. fire from the right and was unable to make much progress and the right company was unable to advance at all owing to the same reason. The enemy had a perfect defensive position which commanded the approach from in front and on the right flank.

16. As regards those elements of the left company which passed through THILLOY, the situation is difficult to ascertain. No Officer by this time appears to have been left with the company. The enemy appear to have been surrounding them on the right flank and eventually they withdrew through the village, and back to the sunken road from which the attack had started.

17. Owing to the formation of the ground the only possible defensive line was then the sunken road RED CUT, with posts pushed out to the edge of LA BARQUE. The line joined up with the 7th R. Fus. on the left. The Battalion was in this position when it was relieved during the night by the 8th Manchester Regt. and withdrew to MIRAUMONT.

18. I attribute the failure of the attack to the fact that the right flank was exposed as the Division on our right did not advance. It is possible that the first attack would have been held up in any case from M.G. fire from THILLOY, but I feel certain that if other troops had been pressing on our right and so engaging the M.Gs. on the ridges in M.7.d. and neighbourhood, my right company would have been able to get forward at the second attempt. If the request for tanks to co-operate had been granted the task would have been easy and could have been accomplished by one Battn instead of two.

Cheers & good luck

Steve

[priv]

Steve,

Huge thanks for the information you supplied - I really appreciate it.

Re Henry William Webb, the SDGW details him as:

Born: Islington, Middlesex

Enlisted: London

Resident: Watford

I have nothing else at the moment - does that ring any more bells ?

Thanks so much again

James

[steve fuller]

Steve,

Huge thanks for the information you supplied - I really appreciate it.

Re Henry William Webb, the SDGW details him as:

Born: Islington, Middlesex

Enlisted: London

Resident: Watford

I have nothing else at the moment - does that ring any more bells ?

Thanks so much again

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Welcome James

I found the Webb I was thinking of & he was a Leighton Man, called Harry. Thats why it rang a bell, just sorry its not him mate.

Best of luck to you in ur search James - hope you crack it!!

Steve

[shark]

HI i am philippe and i live in a village called achiet le grand in france, this village was freed in march 1917 by the 7th bedfords "christopher cox gained his vc during the battle" i know that the 7 th bedford was in thiepval wood in november 1916 as reserve in august 1918 if i am right! the 4th bedfords was attached to the RND and they fought in the vicinity of logeast wood and achiet le grand

i like to know if you have anything which could help me in my research i could had on my website

you can take a look on the web site i'm trying to build on achiet le grand during ww1

http://shark62.chez.tiscali.fr

thanks

[steve fuller]

Hi Phillipe

I can provide the diay of course, but have no info other than that on the battle Im afraid. The 7th were a very fiesty Battalion to be sure and my "favourite" without a doubt, but if you do a new post with "7th Bedfords" in the title, people like Raster Scanning are what i would class as "experts" on the 7th & will be able to give you a lot more details I would imagine. Him & bedfordyeoman are many more years advanced with their research than I can hope to be!!

By the 17th March, the 7th had established their HQ at Achiet Le Grand, having fought its way from the "Loupart Line", Bihucourt & Hill 130 from the 12th onwards.

17 men were recommended for medals as a result, all listed in the diary. Includes 13908 Pte. Cox, C.A. A and C Companies came off the worst, and all the casualties are listed in the diary. If you would like me to email you the diary for the month, let me have your address & I will email it to you?

7th Battalion (S) Bedfordshire Regiment.

March 1917 War Diary

12-3-17 8 AM

Orders received from Brigade to occupy Loupart Line and push forward beyond, making final objective the sunken road on the face of Hill 130 and to consolidate the hill. Operation orders issued to companies. D Company will push forward in four waves and occupy the Loupart Line. C Company will follow in close support and pass over D Company in the Loupart Line and occupy the sunken road on Hill 130. D Company will act as close support to C Company pushing forward as soon as C Company has passed over them. A Company will occupy Loupart Line on the right of the Bihucourt road and B Company the Loupart Line on the left of the Bihucourt road acting as Battalion reserve when C & D Companies have pushed forward. Blankets will be dumped at present positions. Battalion H.Q. will be at Quarry b26.6 St.PIERRE DIVION

10 AM

Brigade conference at Paisley dump on attack against Loupart Line. Operation orders were issued, but are of no consequence as the attack was undertaken prematurely and vital orders received.

8.40 PM D Company left St.Pierre Division to relieve 6th Royal Berks as for operation.

9.15 PM C Company left St.Pierre Division at relieve 8th Suffolks.

9.30 PM B Company left St.Pierre Divion to relieve 8th Suffolks. 8 PM A Company left Warwick huts to relieve 8th Suffolks.

9.40 PM Colonel Mills Cap Colley adjutant 2nd Lts Rednall and Stewart left St.Pierre Division for L 35 d 3.6. Trenches in front of LOUPART LINE

13-3-17 2 AM

Relief reported complete. 3 AM Brigade order to send patrol along Loupart Line as message received from Australians East of Loupart Wood to the effect that the enemy were retiring. D Company were unable to send patrol by darkness but organised daylight patrol which reported Loupart Line evacuated.

11 AM D Moved to Loupart Line. C Company followed in support. The companies moved in four open waves each. Although under shell fire and considerably troubled with machine gun fire from ACHIET le PETIT the formations were splendid and the men were wonderfully steady.

12.15PM C Company passed through D Company and continued in four waves with scouts about 200 yards in advance until held up by heavy machine gun fire about the ACHIET LINE.

1 PM D Company moved close up behind C company and A & B companies occupied the LOUPART line.

2 PM D Company sent two platoons to hold the left flank while C Company consolidated Hill 130 after considerable resistance.

4 PM Finally the position held was the star roads on Hill 130 with the line falling back on the left following the 130 contour and joining up with the 11th Royal

Fusiliers about b 26 B 5.9. with the 6th NORTHAMPTON regiment on the right. Hill 130

5 PM - 8 PM Spent in consolidating line G 22 C 9.1. G 21 D 2.5 G 26 B 5.9.

8 PM C Company ordered to occupy sunken road from star cross roads to Railway and connect with 62nd on left. A and B companies ordered to move up in close support.

10 PM Operations commenced.

14-3-17

1 AM Sunken road occupied by C Company under very able leadership of Lt.Steel. D Company also in the line on right of C Company A and B Companies in close support, shelling very heavy and intense machine gun fire.

7 AM - 7 PM Position held shelling and machine gun fire very heavy all day.

8 PM D Company took over whole front line. C Company in support. A & B in reserve.

15-3-17

8 AM - 12 Noon C Company ordered to attack the Bihucourt line. A Company to act as immediate support. C Company attacked the Bihucourt line, on opening of the attack a very heavy machine gun fire developed from ACHIET le PETIT and the BIHUCOURT trench heavy shelling also took place. The advance under such conditions became impossible and C company dug in about 200 yards down the hill. A company did not advance.

1 PM - 5 PM The position was held without change.

6 PM Under cover of darkness C Company was withdrawn. A Company held the original line on the sunken road. B Company were in support. D & C companies in reserve 12 mid night This order was maintained throughout the day.

16-3-17

6 PM - 12 MIDNIGHT B Company took over the front line from A Company.

17-3-17

5 AM All companies were warned to be prepared to advance at dawn. Active patrolling took place.

8 AM C Company was ordered to advance in four open waves their objectives being the BIHUCOURT line and finally ACHIET le GRAND and the high ridge beyond. D Company was ordered to support C Company. B Company was ordered to make a flank along the railway line as far as ACHIET le GRAND. A Company was to be in reserve. The operation was carried out with the greatest skill and urgency some machine gun fire was experienced at the commencement. Heavy artillery fire was experienced in entering ACHIET le GRAND from which we suffered casualties.

10 AM BIHUCOURT line was occupied.

2 PM ACHIET le GRAND was occupied.

3 PM We had occupied positions round the northern and eastern sides of ACHIET le GRAND and held a strong flank position along the railway on the western side. Positions were consolidated.

6 PM Rations were delivered to companies. Battalion H.Q. were established on southern edge of Achiet le Grand.

18-3-17

3 AM Brigade ordered posts to be put out 1000 yards in advance to cover the forming up of an advance guard.

5 AM Posts complete.

9 AM Advance guard of Yorkshire dragoons 6th Northamptonshire Regt and one battery of field guns passed through BIHUCOURT.

10 AM Battalion remained in Achiet le Grand.

19-3-17

1 AM Moved up to ERVILLERS.

6 PM B Company found out posts on roads round Ervillers.

8 PM D Company sent covering party of two platoons with artillery about two miles out towards St.LÉGER.

20-3-17

3 AM A B and D Companies made up two complete companies under Cap D.S.H.Keep to support 6th Northants in an attack on Croisilles.

3 PM The 54 Brigade was relieved by the 7th Division.

4 PM The Battalion having been relieved by the 7th Division moved back to the LOUPART LINE.

Hope thats OK Phillipe? Let me know wht else you would like & I will see what i can find!

Will have a look at the 4th now ...

[steve fuller]

Found it!! This is the "battle report" in their diary.

4TH BATTALION BEDFORDSHIRE REGIMENT REPORT ON OPERATIONS AUGUST 20th. - 28th, 1918 inclusive. Reference Sheets 57 D. and 57 C.

1. On the night 20/21 Aug. 1918 the Battalion marched from billets in SOUASTRE to LEEDS TRENCH in L.20 c. and d. Considerable difficulty was experienced in reaching this position in the FONQUEVILLERS [sic] - LA BRAYELLE FARM road was blocked by lorries and a tank. All the Companies were in LEEDS TRENCH by about 4.15 a.m.

2. The Battalion formed up on the East side of LEEDS TRENCH in artillery formations A Coy. on the right, C Coy. on the left. "B" Coy. in the centre, "D" Coy. in support in rear of "B" Coy. The 7th. Bn. Royal Fusiliers were on the left.

3. At 5.25 a.m. the Battalion commenced to move forward behind the 189th Inf. Brigade. A thick fog hung over the ground making it difficult to keep direction. The Battalion marched in artillery formation North of BUCQUOY and South of ABLAINZEVILLE [sic], passed over the enemy front line, and proceeded in S.E. direction to leave LOGEAST WOOD on the North.

4. When the Battalion reached L.g.a., the enemy put down a smoke screen which mingled with the fog and made it impossible to see more than two or three yards ahead. The Battalion became somewhat disorganised in consequence and touch was lost for a time with the leading Brigade. Five tanks came to their assistance and it was arranged that 2 tanks should proceed on the south of the trench running through L.6.c., G.2.e., G.9 and 15, and 3 tanks on the north of the trench. two companies of the Battalion followed the tanks in artillery formation on the north side of the trench and two companies on the south side, in each case one company being in front and one company in support in rear. In this manner it was hoped to keep direction as the trench led to about the centre of that part of the ACHIET-LE-GRAND - MIRAUMONT railway, which formed the objective of the 189th Brigade and from which the 4th Bedfords were to attack their objective.

5. The Battalion proceeded in this manner dealing with any small parties of the enemy who had been left by the leading Brigade, and reached a line about G.2.d.2.3. to G.8.b.0.5. Here it was found that the leading Brigades had not been able owing to the fog to make good the ACHIET-LE-GRAND - MIRAUMONT railway.

6. Orders were received that the 190th Brigade would consolidate a line G.14.a.9.9., G.9.c.0.8., G.3.d.2.2., A.27.d.5.1. The 4th Bedfords consolidated a line from G.9.c.0.8 to G.3.d.2.2. - "A" Coy. on the right front, "C" Coy. on the left front, "D" Coy. in support and "B" Coy. in reserve. The Battalion passed the night in these positions.

7. At about 5.30 a.m. 22/8/18 about 100 enemy were seen leaving huts at about G.9.b.0.8. advancing in a S.W. direction to attack post at about G.9.a.6.2. They were observed by "C" Coy. on the left, fired on and dispersed - 9 dead were counted. At 6.50 a.m. a party of the enemy approached a post at G.9.a.8.1. held by the right company ("A"). They also were driven back. 2/Lieut. FLORY who was in charge of the post was killed. Later in the day strong counter-attacks were made by the enemy on the 7th R. Fus. but were repulsed.

8. On 23/8/18, the 37th Division passed through the line we held to attack the ACHIET-LE-GRAND railway and to take up a position East of BIHUCOURT. The 4th Bedfords were then withdrawn in artillery formation to LEEDS TRENCH, which was reached in the evening.

9. On 24/8/18, the Battalion marched in artillery formation to assembly positions about G.21.b. Here the night was spent. At 5 a.m. 25/8/18 the Battalion proceeded in artillery formation: "D" Coy. on the right with "B" Coy. in support: "C" Coy. on the left with "A" Coy. in support, behind the 1st. Artists who followed the 189th Brigade. The 188th and 189th Brigades were to take LA BARQUE and THILLOY and the 190th Brigade were to pass through them to RIENCOURT. the companies were echeloned in order to protect the right flank.

10. The Battalion proceeded round the South side of LOUPART WOOD and reached the main BAPAUME-ALBERT Road at about M.12.a. The 188th and 189th Brigades had penetrated into LA BARQUE but were held up by M.G. fire. Meanwhile the right flank was exposed and as M.G. fire was coming from that direction, it was decided to form a defensive flank facing S.W. along the line roughly M.12.d.7.7. to M.5.d.7.5. The 1st Artists Rifles held the line from M.12. central to the main road, and the 7th R. Fus. prolonged the line in a North Westerly direction. In the evening attacks were made on the 188th and 189th Brigades, but were repulsed, and the dispositions of the 4th Bedfords remained unchanged. The night was spent in this position.

11. On 26/8/18 the 188th and 189th Brigades attacked THILLOY and LIGNY THILLOY from the sunken road called RED CUT running north and south through N.1.a. and c. and N.7.a. The 4th Bedfords formed up in artillery formation 700 yards behind them ready to follow them. The attacking troops were unable to get forward and the night was spent in these positions.

12. At 11 a.m. on 27/8/18, 4th Bedfords assembled in RED CUT to attack THILLOY and LIGNY THILLOY. The 7th R. Fus. were on the left, the boundary running along line from N.1.c.2.3. parallel to grid to N.2.c.3.3. Boundary on south was grid running through N.7.8. and 9. D.Coy. was on the right, "B" Coy. in centre, and "C" Coy. on left each with 3 platoons in front line and 1 in reserve. "A" Coy. in reserve behind "B" Coy.

13. The barrage started at 11 a.m. and lifted forward at 11.3 moving back at the rate of 100 yards every 3 mins. Shells fell into the assembly positions which were thought to come from our own guns firing short. On leaving the sunken road heavy M.G. fire was encountered from the front and the left and especially from the right flank. It had been arranged that 21st. Division would attack on our right, but their attack was cancelled at the last moment and our right flank was thus exposed to extremely heavy M.G. fire from the high ground in M.7.d., M.8.c. and further south.

14. The line was held up and the positions occupied were then roughly a line from about N.1.e.8.2. - N.7.a.9.4. - N.7.a.4.0. No further advance was possible as M.G. fire from THILLOY and the ridges on the right was so heavy. Snipers were very active and claimed many victims.

15. At 6 p.m. after 1 hours bombardment by heavy artillery and preceded by an 18 poundered [sic] barrage the advance was continued again. Just previous to zero one of our heavy shells fell in the midst of the centre Coy. and did much damage. Some of "C" Coy. on the left entered THILLOY and went right through, with their right on the cross roads at about N.2.e.8.0. The left of the centre company was met again by very heavy M.G. fire from the right and was unable to make much progress and the right company was unable to advance at all owing to the same reason. The enemy had a perfect defensive position which commanded the approach from in front and on the right flank.

16. As regards those elements of the left company which passed through THILLOY, the situation is difficult to ascertain. No Officer by this time appears to have been left with the company. The enemy appear to have been surrounding them on the right flank and eventually they withdrew through the village, and back to the sunken road from which the attack had started.

17. Owing to the formation of the ground the only possible defensive line was then the sunken road RED CUT, with posts pushed out to the edge of LA BARQUE. The line joined up with the 7th R. Fus. on the left. The Battalion was in this position when it was relieved during the night by the 8th Manchester Regt. and withdrew to MIRAUMONT.

18. I attribute the failure of the attack to the fact that the right flank was exposed as the Division on our right did not advance. It is possible that the first attack would have been held up in any case from M.G. fire from THILLOY, but I feel certain that if other troops had been pressing on our right and so engaging the M.Gs. on the ridges in M.7.d. and neighbourhood, my right company would have been able to get forward at the second attempt. If the request for tanks to co-operate had been granted the task would have been easy and could have been accomplished by one Battn instead of two.

Seems that the Bedfords were regular visitors to Achiet le Grand in the war?!

I have had a quick look at 7th Bedfords Nov 1916, but only see Albert, Regina trenches and similar places mentioned. Will have a good look tommorrow if thats OK, as I need some sleep!!

Speak to you tommorrow Phillipe.

[damien7]

Steve

Thanks very much for such interesting info, its greatly appreciated.

Damien

[steve fuller]

Steve

Thanks very much for such interesting info, its greatly appreciated.

Damien

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problem at all Damien

Have you posted under a heading including "Bedfords" in the title, as there are a few real specialists om forum that may have info over anything I can provide? Worth a go praps?

Cheers

Steve

[damien7]

No problem at all Damien

Have you posted under a heading including "Bedfords" in the title, as there are a few real specialists om forum that may have info over anything I can provide? Worth a go praps? 

Cheers

Steve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Steve

Will do.

Thanks again for all great info.

Damien

[chrismac]

Steve

I'm trying to find out a bit more about a chap listed on my village war memorial

Pt Herbert Goward 30458 4th Bttn

who died on Sunday 29th April 1917

Any info on what his battalion were doing and where they were around that time would be much appreciated

many thanks

chris

[Stebie9173]

Steve,

Can you look at the 1/5th War Diary and see if there is any mention of a batch of MMs towards the end of 1917. Judging by the TF re-numbers, there is a whole load of 54th Division MMs gazetted 29-3-1918 (strangely no 52nd, 53rd or 74th Yeomanry Division ones...).

A list of the 1/5th Bedfords MMs:

201151 Cpl (A/L-Sgt) R R Charge MM (Paddington) - Bar to MM gazetted 18-10-1917.

MMs

200152 Pte F Andrews (Olney)

200548 Pte H J Chamberlain (Luton)

200286 Pte A Halfpenny (Luton)*

203127 Sjt R E Hawking (Bedford)

200467 Pte W Hallyar (Bedford)

201066 Pte A C Joyce (Bedford)

201284 Pte (A/Cpl) H G Kent (Berkhampstead)*

201287 Pte W Kingham (Hockliffe)*

201283 Pte G Knight (Goddington)*

201376 Pte S Swallows (Gt Munden)

201411 Pte (A/Cpl) H Varnam (Netherfield)

(* Four there have almost consecutive Nos....)

These may be MMs for the whole campaign, but there are two MM Bar gazettes, one in October (above) and another from January 1918.

There are approximately 100 MMs to TF units with numbers relating to the 54th Division out of about 650 to men in British units in that issue. Combined with the fact that a fair few Imperial Camel Corps MMs appear too, suggests that they are all still with their original re-number units and serving in Palestine.

Anyway, I'm trying to pin down where the MMs were earnt. I'm angling towards the 3rd Battle of Gaza, but I'm wondering about the lack of other EEF Divisions MMs in the issue. Was there an engagement where only 54th division were present? Jaffa (21-22.12.17), perhaps, since I know nothing of that battle?

Steve.

[steve fuller]

Steve

I'm trying to find out a bit more about a chap listed on my village war memorial

Pt Herbert Goward 30458 4th Bttn

who died on Sunday 29th April 1917

Any info on what his battalion were doing and where they were around that time would be much appreciated

many thanks

chris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Chris

Sorry to report I have none of the 4th from 1917. Seems to have slipped the net mate, sorry. Try Nigel at the Bedford CRO - he is usually happy to have a quick gander when time allows. Mail me if you havent got his address & Ill dig it out for you.

Cheers

Steve

[Stebie9173]

The 63rd Division (which included the 4th Bedfords) attacked Gavrelle on the 28th April 1917 as part of the Battle of Arras. Not much I'm afraid, but a start, I hope.

Steve.

[steve fuller]

Steve,

Can you look at the 1/5th War Diary and see if there is any mention of a batch of MMs towards the end of 1917

A list of the 1/5th Bedfords MMs:

201151 Cpl (A/L-Sgt) R R Charge MM (Paddington) - Bar to MM gazetted 18-10-1917.

MMs

200548 Pte H J Chamberlain (Luton)

203127 Sjt R E Hawking (Bedford)

200467 Pte W Hallyar (Bedford)

201066 Pte A C Joyce (Bedford)

201284 Pte (A/Cpl) H G Kent (Berkhampstead)*

201287 Pte W Kingham (Hockliffe)*

201283 Pte G Knight (Goddington)*

201376 Pte S Swallows (Gt Munden)

201411 Pte (A/Cpl) H Varnam (Netherfield)

Anyway, I'm trying to pin down where the MMs were earnt. I'm angling towards the 3rd Battle of Gaza, but I'm wondering about the lack of other EEF Divisions MMs in the issue. Was there an engagement where only 54th division were present? Jaffa, perhaps, since I know nothing of that battle?

Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi ya Steve

Not much help with your basic question sorry to say. A couple on your list stand out:

200286 Pte A Halfpenny (Luton)*

200152 Pte F Andrews (Olney)

16 Mar 1918 Heavy Rain in the early morning. Major C.R.James, Capt.F.B.Hobbs & Lieut.W.A.Shaw MC, R.S.M.Milton MC, DCM, C.S.M.Chandler Sgts Sapsford, Sharpe, Cpl.Ball D.C.M's., Sgt.Marlow, Ptes Halfpenny, Andrews M.M's proceeding to YAZUR for presentation of decorations by the Duke of Connaught

If its any help, the only other info the diary gives is:

2 - 3 Nov at Gaza attacked The Garden, Tortoise Hill & Turtle Hill very effectively but werent involved in Nabi Samwell actions 20-24 Nov.

22 Dec 1917; B Coy assaulted YAFA HILL without Artillery Support, the bayonet being the only weapon used. The enemy put up a stiff fight but was soon overcome and the whole garrison bolted. Our men having received orders not to advance beyond a certain point did not pursue. (A good candidate Id say?)

In MULEBBIS (Jordan Valley) 14 Jan to March 1918, and on 12th March 1918, they attacked around MEDJEL YABA. Other than that, looks like a very quiet time Jan to March 1918, so no real clues there either.

Other than those 2 chaps above, no more are listed by name Steve, but the diary is unusual in that way Ive found! Now & again a "non descript" Pte pops up with a very slight wound, yet no mention of Pte Needhams VC in Sept 1918 etc!

Nice to see a fair few "200..." no's still around then. My GG was 200570, one of the August 1914 enlisters - good to see a few got that far.

Very long shot but some of these (especially Sgt Charge) MAY be from the Umbrella Hill raids July 1917. The raids were so succesful that they became the Infantry standard of "how to" in that theatre. Below is an entry ref the 1st raid, but most are likely from Gaza, as you say.

23 Jul 1917 1700 The day was spent in routine work. At 1700 Major-General S.W.HARE G.O.C. 54th Div presented 19 Military Medals to members of the Raiding party for gallantry in action of the recipients. 16 belonged to the unit. . No list believe it or not though!!

Second raid on 27th July saw 3 KIA, 7 missing & 23 wnd, but they bagged over 50 Turks, pinched a machine gun & loads of stores. Had summat to prove by then Id say!

Sorry cant help more mate, but worth asking Bedfordyeoman / Raster Scanning Id say? Cheers mate.

Steve

[Stebie9173]

Thanks for that, Steve.

A fair bit to consider there.

9 of my 100 MMs are for RFA units (the ones I'm looking at to be honest) so the Yafa (Jaffa?) Hill raid looks unlikely.

3rd Battle of Gaza or a spread, with the Divisional admin getting a lot of commendations sent in at once, look the likely candidates.

Cheers,

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

18 1/5th Bedfords MMs from the London Gazette 18-10-1917):

201122 Pte W A Beesley (Watford)

201131 Cpl F Burgess (Harpenden)

201450 Sgt J J Chandler (Kennington Park)

201151 Cpl A/L-Sgt R R Charge (Willesden)

200195 Sgt E G Clifford (Stow-on-Wold)

200052 A/Cpl A Dennis (Bedford)

201222 Pte A C Garrett (Takeley)

200938 Pte E Holmes (Leighton Buzzard)

201050 Pte H Johns (Bedford)

201305 Pte J T W Lawman (Hitchin)

200616 Pte R Parrott (Marston Church End)

201336 Pte W Pratt (Crawley)

201359 L/Cpl H Reeve (Letchworth)

201076 Pte E Ruff (St Neots)

201405 Cpl (L-Sgt) H G Taylor (Biggleswade)

200470 Pte A Trueman (Bedford)

200530 A/Cpl S W Webb (Luton)

201509 Sjt W H Whyman (Hertford)

Have I got two too many or am I missing one?

Steve.

[steve fuller]

18 1/5th Bedfords MMs from the London Gazette 18-10-1917):

201122 Pte W A Beesley (Watford)

201131 Cpl F Burgess (Harpenden)

201450 Sgt J J Chandler (Kennington Park)

201151 Cpl A/L-Sgt R R Charge (Willesden)

200195 Sgt E G Clifford (Stow-on-Wold)

200052 A/Cpl A Dennis (Bedford)

201222 Pte A C Garrett (Takeley)

200938 Pte E Holmes (Leighton Buzzard)

201050 Pte H Johns (Bedford)

201305 Pte J T W Lawman (Hitchin)

200616 Pte R Parrott (Marston Church End)

201336 Pte W Pratt (Crawley)

201359 L/Cpl H Reeve (Letchworth)

201076 Pte E Ruff (St Neots)

201405 Cpl (L-Sgt) H G Taylor (Biggleswade)

200470 Pte A Trueman (Bedford)

200530 A/Cpl S W Webb (Luton)

201509 Sjt W H Whyman (Hertford)

Have I got two too many or am I missing one?

Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Steve, thats brilliant. Are the gazettes on line & do they have any further info attached to them at all?

From the diary:

"2 Aug 1917 Routine work in camp. Working parties from 0700-1100 to 1/5 Suffolk R FLINT REDOUBT & A Batt 270th Bde RFA. At 1645 Military Medals were distributed by G.O.C. 54th Division to

Pte BEESLEY, W.A.,

Pte REEVES, H.,

Pte PRATT, W.

(award of Military Medal notified in the case of

Sergt.CLIFFORD, E.G,

Cpl. CHARGER,

Pte.WORROW, D.A.J.

all of whom were absent) for gallantry in connexion with 2nd raid on UMBRELLA HILL

3 Aug 1917 - Deir el Belah Notification received of award of Military Cross to

Capt.H.S.ARMSTRONG,

Capt.C.H.MISKIN &

Capt.A.T.CUNNINGHAM

for gallantry in connexion with 1st raid on UMBRELLA HILL."

I guess Clifford, Charger & Worrow were wounded & recovering then?

[Stebie9173]

Steve.

Short answers re the London Gazette:

Yes and No.

The gazettes are here:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk

There is a separate WW1 (& WW2) link. The search engine relies on the software used to read the PDF pages and can be a bit "odd".

You can search for individual names (or type in military medal). There are also medal categories at the bottom of the search page but these are best used without a name.

When typing the search name I always put in a full-stop e.g. w. a. beesley and not w a beesley.

It can find numbers too but that is even more hit and miss (I often get pages of dead soldiers money returned to NOK)

The MMs have no citations, nor do they state exact units (except the first few months from April 1916 to June 1916). DCMs & MCs quote the citations and earlier ones also have exact units. Sometimes the "announcements" and the citations are in separate issues.

Looks like I found the MMs for the wrong raid (these are the 2nd raid, it appears). I'll have a look for the 1st raid and the MCs.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Same Gazette 18-10-17

Awarded MCs:

2nd Lt. (T./Capt.) Harold Simon Armstrong, Bedf. R., Spec. Res.

T./Qr.-Mr. and Hon. Lt. Frank Corner, Bedf. R. *

T./Capt. Andrew Tocher Cunningham, M.B., R.A.M.C.

Capt. Christopher Harold Miskin, Bedf. R.

Lt. William Arthur Shaw, Bedf. R. *

Since these are for the 1st raid and the MMs for the 2nd, it may well be that the Gazette has the MCs and MMs for both raids. And I'm missing a few from my list...

The officers marked * are Bedford officers in that Gazette issue but may well be for other battalions, of course.

The MCs don't have their citations shown. They must be later.

Steve

[Stebie9173]

Here are the citations for the MCs.

London Gazette 7-3-1918

2nd Lt. (T./Capt.) Harold Simon Armstrong, Bedf. R., Spec. Res.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty when in command of a raiding party. Owing to the dense smoke from the bombardment some confusion was caused when the party entered the enemy's lines, but with great coolness he got all his parties to their allotted objectives. The withdrawal was rendered extremely difficult owing to an enemy barrage, but he personally reconnoitred the best way through it, and got his party back successfully. His coolness, courage and presence of mind in very difficult circumstances saved a number of casualties and contributed largely to the success of the operations.

T./Qr-Mr. and Hon. Lt. Frank Corner, Bedf. R.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty when the enemy suddenly opened a very heavy shell fire on the wagons taking up rations. He personally went through the heavy shelling, directed the drivers what to do, and by his cool courage and total disregard for his personal safety he saved horses, men, and rations from certain destruction. He was very badly shaken by the shell fire in performing this gallant duty.

(I imagine that in the desert this was particularly necessary deed, particularly with the water, providing that he was actually in the 1/5th Battalion. His MIC lists him as 7th Siege Battery Bedfordshire Regiment. Odd description but the 7th Siege Battery RGA was in France, so probably not 1/5th)

T./Capt. Andrew Tocher Cunningham, M.B., R.A.M.C.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty during a raid on the enemy's lines. He worked continually throughout an intense bombardment attending to the wounded at the aid post until they had all been attended to and evacuated. He showed great courage and devotion to duty.

Capt. Christopher Harold Miskin, Bedf. R.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty during a raid on the enemy's lines. He was in charge of a party of reserves concentrated in rear of our front line, which came under an intense barrage after the raid had started. He moved about in this barrage in the most fearless manner, and succeeded in stopping the raiding party on their return and diverting them round the barrage. But for his courage and presence of mind under very heavy fire many casualties would undoubtedly have occurred.

Lt. William Arthur Shaw, Bedf. R.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty during a raid on the enemy's lines.

On reaching the enemy's front trench he was confronted with a machine gun mounted on the parapet which threatened to hold up the whole party. Without hesitation he dashed at it with his party, killed the gunners, and captured the gun. He then led his men along the trench in face of rifle fire and bombing, and forced the enemy to give way. He showed remarkable dash and leadership.

(From Gazette 5-2-1919: 5th Bn., Bedfordshire Regt.—Lt. W. A. Shaw, M.C., Bedford Regt.,' to be actg. Capt. whilst comdg. a Co. 15th Nov. 1918.)

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

In the cold light of day I have found one more TF-numbered Bedfords MM in the Gazette of 18-10-17:

201468 Pte G J Pushman (Colchester)

and two with non-TF numbers

31734 Pte D A J Worrow, Bedf. R. (Waltham Cross)

37096 Pte J Lawrence, Bedf, R. (Lewisham)

Since Worrow is listed in the War Diary, it is possible that Lawrence was with the 5th, too.

That's a total of 21 men (18 main list + 3 here) for the MMs awarded in the two raids of 16+6 = 22. Still missing one MM it seems but one could assume that the men not mentioned in your list of 6 for the 1st raid were 15 of the 16 from the 2nd? Dangerous, I know.

Steve.

[steve fuller]

Steve, youre a star mate - thank you so much, for everything! You seem to know your medals & must have spent ages on it! For what its worth Pal, I appreciate it a great deal. Thanks.

I was gonna get these kind of details in 2-3 weeks time to build n extra reference section on the Beds site Im building - would you mind if I used these mate?

Worrow & Lawrences non TF no's are interesting. Maybe they were late enlisters (K1 or 2) and transferred to Egypt for some reason. Praps they were originally Reserve Btn (2/5th or 3/5th) due to age, then transferred out there later. May have to get their MIC's next week out of curiosity. Thats the prob with this subject isnt it - soooo easy to get distracted with info you didnt originally intend to look at until later!!!!

Right, off to get blurry eyed again (another late night ... but worth every bag & line!!)

[Stebie9173]

No problems using the info.

Of course, the MMs especially are not definitively for the 2nd Raid on Umbrella Hill, but since the TF numbers agree and there are the right amount of medals in the right place, I think the balance of probabilities is with us...

The non-TF numbers have piqued my curiousity, too. Let me know what you find.

Steve.