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Remembered Today:

Bedfordshire Regmnt War Diaries


steve fuller

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HI i am philippe and i live in a village called achiet le grand  in france, this village was freed in march 1917 by the 7th bedfords "christopher cox gained his vc during the battle" i know that the 7 th bedford was in thiepval wood in november 1916 as reserve in  august 1918 if i am right! the 4th bedfords was attached to the RND and they fought in  the vicinity of logeast wood and achiet le grand

i like to know if you have anything which could help me in my research i could had on my website

you can  take a look on the web site i'm trying to build on achiet le grand during ww1

http://shark62.chez.tiscali.fr

thanks

thanks steve

i would like if you could e-mail me the diary and the casuaties

i have been in contact with steven cox and i have the book of his life written by mary hallet

i'm trying to figure the order of the battle in august 1918 with the 37 div and of course the 63 royal naval division to advance on my web site

philippe.dr@tiscali.fr

regards

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31734 Pte D A J Worrow, Bedf. R. (Waltham Cross)

37096 Pte J Lawrence, Bedf, R. (Lewisham)

Since Worrow is listed in the War Diary, it is possible that Lawrence was with the 5th, too.

Steve.

Well, been cross referencing tonight & gotta better idea on Lawrence. He was in the 5th & strangely enough was killed with Pte William Beesley 201122 - won an MM at the same time as him in the same raid in July 1917.

37096 Pte J Lawrence, Bedf, R. (Lewisham). KIA 22 December 1917

Battalion War Dairy 22 Dec 1917

“Hackney Mound and Yafa Hill 0010 B Coy assaulted YAFA HILL without Artillery Support, the bayonet being the only weapon used. The enemy put up a stiff fight but was soon overcome and the whole garrison bolted. Our men having received orders not to advance beyond a certain point did not pursue. Consolidation of the Post was immediately begun. C Coy acted as carrying party and brought up R.E. material, S.A.A. &c they remained as Working Party withdrawing at dawn 0030 YAFA SUBSECTION till then occupied by 1/10th London Regt was taken over by D & A Coy. By dawn the consolidation of YAFA HILL was sufficiently advanced to render it tenable during day. No shelling was taking place but heavy enemy M.G. fire was experienced. Our casualties were 4 O'Ranks Killed, 1 Officer & 9 O'Ranks wounded.”

CWGC details also confirm its him but no clues why the K1 or K2 service number. Probably one of the drafts that were recieved as the campaign hotted up?

Worrow has no other mentions & no CWGC, so gonna have to get his MIC to expand. Will do it over the weekend, all things being equal ...

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I have managed to find the answer for my earlier question (which was "using" the 5th Bedfords MMs as a yardstick for when some RFA MMs were awarded).

I found this extract in the "Short History of the Northants Battery", Published 1926) which refers to the MMs gazetteed to the RFA men that issue.

post-6536-1121011813.jpg

It would therefore not be too great a leap of faith to draw the conclusion that the 5th Bedfords MMs I listed above were won at the 3rd Battle of Gaza, too.

Next question coming up...

Steve.

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Steve,

Can you tell me what references there are to gas attacks against the 7th Bedfords during 1916?

I'm trying to find a starting point to investigate my great-uncles gassing and am looking for possible dates to research further...

Thanks,

Steve.

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Steve,

Can you tell me what references there are to gas attacks against the 7th Bedfords during 1916?

I'm trying to find a starting point to investigate my great-uncles gassing and am looking for possible dates to research further...

Thanks,

Steve.

Leave it with me Steve & will trawl the diaries later today, time permitting :D

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Steve

I know this is a long shot but during your trawls throught the diaries have you seen any mention of Pte Charles lay 19857 8th Batt awarded the military medal in 1916 we believe-know nothing about why my Great grandfather was awarded the medal or for what action

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Cheers

Perce

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Perce,

I assume you have found the actual LG entry. In case you haven't it was in the Gazette dated 21-12-1916 (Published date and LG search date of 19-12-1916)

19857 Pte. C. Lay, Bedf. R.

At that time the delay between action and Gazette was pretty much 3 months.

The two possibilities are likely to be

Battle of Morval 25-9-1916 to 27-9-1916 where the 8th Bedfords were with 6th Division or the Battle of Flers-Courcellete 15-9-1916.

Hope that narrows it down for you to have a more focussed look, Steve.

Hope this helps you Perce.

Steve.

P.S. Steve. Don't need the gas attacks references any more, in case you were going to look still. If you have already then I'll have the info. Otherwise, cross it off your list...

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Ooh, my first double post!

Move along... nothing to see here...

Steve.

Edited by Stebie9173
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Hi ya Perce

Right, not much substantial im afraid but here goes ...

Charles MM gazette entry is here (in case you havent seen it). Doesnt carry a mention of details but its a start. Gazzette 29873, page 4 of 10, dated 19/12/1916.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

Hes about 20 down on the right hand column. Ive had a really good look through the gazette & diary; there are 7 pages of British MM,s including 20 or so Bedfordshires in all, and another 2 covering the Australians & Canadians in this entry, so u would imagine it relates to a pretty major action BUT no mention of actions in May to August diary, but will suggest options later ...

Charles isnt mentioned in the 1916 or 1917 diary BUT on the same gazette as his. Pte 20855 J Nottingham is in the diary (below) and on the same gazette list as Charles.

"24 Dec 1916 Presentation of medal ribbons by Corps Commander to Capt J E Black M.C. (RAMC) Lt W.J.Holbrook MC. and military medalists Ptes Aston, Nottingham & Thurgrove.".

Black & Holbrooks MCs have evaded me, so cant pinpoint times from them, although they are shown as already carrying their medals August 1916. Aston & Thurgrove are likewise - cant find them at all Im afraid.

April saw heavy casualties & gallantry medals but they were all covered in despatched prior to the one Charles is in, so no joy there ...

About the only suggestion I can find in the diary is September:

"13 Sep 1916 - trenches near Guillemont Capt. Steyer with B Coy co-operated with 18th Brigade in an attack at 6 a.m. on QUADRILATERAL. Attack unsuccessful although B Coy bombed their way about 100 yds along German trench causing considerable casualties to the enemy. The attack was repeated at 6 p.m. with two platoons of C Coy. assisting the 18th. Brigade in the frontal attack. Enemy driven in from his advanced posts but QUADRILATERAL not taken.

14 Sep 1916 Battalion in trenches making all preparations for part in 4th Army offensive on 15th September.

15 Sep 1916 Battalion ordered to take QUADRILATERAL assisted by the Heavy Section of the M.G. Corps with "TANKS" advance about 500 yds NE abd dig in. Battn was in a position for attack about 4.30 a.m. ZERO hour 6.20 a.m. Three wavs were supplied by D, D and A Coys under Capt Hatch, 2/Lt Hodges and Lt Draisey, respectively to attack the QUADRILATERAL, which was on our left flank, whilst B Coy co-operated by bombing down trench leading to it. At 6.0 a.m. heavy artillery opened slow barrage on Line MORVAL - LES BOEUFS. At ZERO hour (6.20 a.m.) intense artillery barrage opened and unluckily was cut short where our 3 companies were drawn up for the attack in shell holes. This mistake caused many casualties. Our attacking companies pushed forward and though supported by 1/The Buffs and later re-enforced by the 2/York & Lancaster Regt failed to take the position. "TANKS" did not arrive to assist and the position was not heavily shelled previous to the attack. Brigade ordered original trenches to be held and await orders. As battalion had suffered very severely in casualties, 6 Officers killed and 7 wounded we were relieved by 2/Y & L at 6.0.p.m. and put in brigade reserve in trenches S.E. of GUILLEMONT."

"STATEMENT 8th BATTALION BEDFORDSHIRE REGIMENT at SEPTEMBER 30th. 1916

KILLED 6 Officers 64 Other Ranks

WOUNDED 8 Officers 210

MISSING 101

DIED OF WOUNDS 2 included in killed.

TO HOSPITAL 63 FROM HOSPITAL 11 EVACUATED FRO(M) FRANCE 15

STRENGTH OF A COMPANY 13 Officers 202 Other Ranks

STRENGTH OF B COMPANY 2 Officers 188 Other Ranks

STRENGTH OF C COMPANY 6 Officers 197 Other Ranks STRENGTH OF D COMPANY 4 Officers 216 Other Ranks

TOTAL 25 Officers 803 Other Ranks"

Sept is the heavist casualty month of the year too, so the "collective info" & instinct are pointing me there, but nothing firm to support it Im sorry to say Perce.

Cheers :D

Steve

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Ooh, my first double post!

Move along... nothing to see here...

Steve.

:lol: great minds and all that mate!!!

If youre sure, Ill scrub the gas off the list, but was hoping to reach it this week. Your call mate

Have you come across the following on your travels bud? Was (locked in) Towcester Rd cem' last night & curious about them. The 2 italliced ones feel more important but ...

C3268 Staff Sgt KENDALL, RAOC died 5/3/1917 aged 51

Ltn G REEVE MC,MM. Royal Irish Fus', died 15/10/1918 aged 32

8681 Pte D HAYES R Munster Fus' died 4/9/1920

3/10344 RJ CHANDLER, Northants Regt died 20/4/1921 aged 41

34958 Pte E Barker 6th R Berks died 9/3/1922 aged 31

5006 C Sgt Major FW LAND DCM Northants, died 8/5/1921 aged 43.

Dopnt go outta ur way mate, just curious & will get to them at some point but you seemed like the chap to ask initially!! ;)

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Outstanding thank you very much-if there is anything i can do in return drop me a line. Have a list of docs I own in the docs section

Cheers

Perce :lol:

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Steve,

Not got "The List" with me, but Chandler seems to be familiar...

Perce (and Steve),

I've had a good study of this Gazette issue, too. (Sad aren't we? :rolleyes: ). I have a few of the 6th Northants with MMs on here for actions at Thiepval 26-9-1916, from memory "14309 Pte. G. W. Byrne, North'n R." on page 2 who the local paper records as winning his MM for "actions at Thiepval" on 26-9-16. Looking at the others in the issue, the units seemed to match up to regiments with units active at Morval and Thiepval on 25,26 & 27-9-1916 (It's the Somme, I know. Most Regiments were represented there.) Off the top of my head, it included Guards Regiment MMs who were at Morval, plenty of the Bedfords (7th at Schwaben Redoubt, 8th at Morval), and Canadians at Thiepval (Mouquet Farm). Although the detailed units weren't recorded in the LG at that time, I was of the opinion that most of the MMs covered the actions at Thiepval and Morval.

Another thing on my NA list...

Of course, Flers-Courcellete was pretty close to that time, too. So doubt remains...

Steve.

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Perce - most welcome bud :D . Worth considering what Steve had added, as I forgot about the 7th at Schwaben (how could I - they were my top study for over a year ... sorry boys :( )

Steve - good point that, didnt consider the 7th Beds, as they were always busy boys & were mentioned in the Times for the schwaben redoubt. Good thinking Batman ... Chandler rang bells here too, but wrote it off to a Chandler from Heath & Reach. Be interesting to see though. May have to get sidetracked (to make a change) & have a gander at CWGC ...

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This is all the gen we had on Charles until today

Pte Charles Lay -overseas 23/08/15 gazetted 21/12/16 Military Medal possibly according to the family for rescueing comrades under fire-wounded 3 times discharged 20/01/1919 became a grocer after the war, all his paperwork lost when he died in the late 20's early 30's -all his paperwork and property passed to his second wife apart from the medals which went to my gran his daughter

Cheers

Perce

post-2775-1122910944.jpg

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Perce - have seen this pic before, so maybe we chatted about him a year or so ago?

Did you get his MIC? Is the 8th the only Btn mentioned?

If you like, I can (time permitting) pull the relevant engagements outta the diary for you, to add to the story ur building on him? Take me a while to be honest but happy to work at it? Alternatively, mail me on stevefuller7@yahoo.co.uk and Ill send you a word doc with them on? Have only completed basic "formatting" on them (separated timelines, bold names etc)so you would need to trawl thru them & ID the engagements etc, but theyre yours if theyre any use mate? Think Sean Finnis on forum has an 8th relly too, for what its worth.

One of my relatives servied in the 8th (see my signature), so have done a small amount on them but never seem to get around to completing it!!!!!!

May also be worh asking Nigel Lutt at the Bedford CRO if he's got anything on him. Very long shot, but he's a wealth of info & lovely guy to boot ....

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Steve,

Chandler was 1st Northants from Northampton. Also in Boer War. No details on him, I'm afraid. The Chandler I was thinking of was William Ernest Chandler, 6th Northants (of course), of St. Crispins Northampton. May be related, of course.

On MMs.

I have three 6th Northants men gazetted 21-12-1916 "confirmed" in the local paper as for actions at Thiepval.

Also "Cheerful Sacrifice" by Jonathan Nichols (book on Arras) gives 15558 Sjt Jonathan J "Jack" Cousins (one of the 7th Beds) as winning the MM at Schwaben:

"Sergeant Jack Cousins, of the 7th Beds, a farm labourer before the war and typical of the lads of dependable country stock that made up the ranks of the Division, was one of the survivors of the Somme. As he later reflected:

Seven of us boys from Redbourn had joined the army together on the same Saturday in August 1914, when we walked from Redbourn to the recruiting office at St Albans, but at the end of the Somme I was the only one left. I was lucky I came through the whole lot unscathed. It was simply a matter of self preservation. I was paid to kill Germans and I did it to the best of my ability... It's either you or them, don't wait to be asked, just get stuck in. I remember General Maxse's words when he stuck the medal on me. "Kill Germans".

Sergeant Cousins won the Military Medal after the attack on Schwaben Redoubt, won by skilful use of a Lewis gun in clearing a particularly dangerous section of trench"

The 21-12-1916 gazettes all but 3 of the 22 7th Bedfords men mentioned as recommended for the MM to 54th Brigade HQ on 2-10-1916. Perhaps the other three did not get the MM.

The following Bedfordshire Regiment men who were NOT in the list of 7th Bedfordshires were awarded MMs in the same gazette:

7175 Cpl. A Fauldner

9731 L/Sgt. W. J. Hill

19857 Pte. C. Lay (8th)

17446 Pte. G. H. Musgrove

20855 Pte. J. Nottingham

43466 Pte. P. Parry

13306 Pte. H. Scrivener

12615 A/Sgt. P. Skelhorne

3/7607 L/C. Trot.

In other words they are definitely MMs for the period of time including Thiepval, Morval and Flers-Courcelette.

Steve.

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Thought I could use the 2 MCs to the Bedfords to track down some of my Northants MCs for Thiepval.

Hmmm.... <_< However, there's plenty of your men. Black and Holbrook + others. Presumably for Schwaben, I would think, bearing in mind the usually shorter run in time for the MCs and DCMs.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

London Gazette 14-11-1916

MCs

Temp. 2nd Lt. William James Holbrook, Bedf. R.

For conspicuous gallantry when organising the ammunition supply, and for the fine defence of his trench close to the enemy two days later. He set a fine example.

Capt. James Elliot Black, M.B., R.A.M.C., Spec. Res.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty in action. He rendered valuable services when attending the wounded under heavy machine gun and shell fire. Later, he went out into "No Man's Land" to succour the wounded.

2nd Lt. (temp. Capt.) Samuel Norrish, Bedf. R.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. When the other officers had become casualties, he, with the other officer, pushed on and reorganised the companies and consolidated a line, displaying great courage and determination.

2nd Lt. (temp. Capt.) Herbert John West, Bedf. R., Spec. Res.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. He led his company in the attack and ensured the capture of the position, displaying great courage and determination. He was severely wounded.

DSOs

Lt. (temp. Capt.) William Harold Louis Barnett, Bedf. R., Spec. Res.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. 'He led his company with the greatest courage and determination. Later he led his company in the assault.after suffering nine hours under barrage fire. His gallantry and

initiative greatly assisted the success of the operations.

Temp. Capt. Pierre Steyn, Bedf. R.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. In three separate fights he displayed great coolness and determination, and by his fine: example greatly encouraged all ranks.

DCMs

9522 Sjt. C. J. Atkinson, Bedf. R.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. He tended the wounded under heavy fire with great courage and determination. Later, he rescued two men who were buried.

19255 Sjt. G. Howlett, Bedf. R.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. Although wounded, he stuck to his post for two days. When his officers had become casualties, he took command of his company, displaying great courage and initiative.

9190 C. S./M. W. C. Ward, Bedf. R.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. Coy. Sjt.-Maj. Ward found a company whose officers had all become casualties. He rallied it, and led it forward in support of an attack. Later, in the trenches, he showed untiring zeal in firing rifle grenades and Lewis guns. His fine example did much to sustain the morale of the men.

Thought you could do more with them than me, Steve.

Steve.

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Cheers Steve - we're as bad as each other for getting sidetracked mate!! :D

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There is also a London Gazette of 9th December 1916 which has some more Bedfords in it:

18069 Cpl. F. Bradley, Bedf. R.

22804 Pte. F. W. Caves, Bedf. R.

43031 Pte. C. J. Cross, Bedf. R.

14061 Actg. Coy. S./M. R. Driscoll, Bedf. R.

13610 L.C. H. McHugh, Bedf. R.

3/6701 Pte. W. Neal, Bedf. R.

19292 Pte. F. Oyston, Bedf. R.

3/7184 L./C. F. Payne, Bedf. R.

19543 Pte. A. E. G. Underwood, Bedf. R.

14051 Pte. C. Waldock, Bedf. R.

The 9-12-1916 gazette includes regiments such as the KRRC & Rifle Brigade plus Scottish Regiments represented in the 15th Division at Martinpuich in the Flers-Courcelette battle. A fair few of these were at Flers-Courcelette and not Morval, but also vice-versa with some of the regiments reprsented in the 21-12-1916 Gazette.

It also contains several MMs to "ASC and MGC" men (the drivers of the first tanks into battle) who are mentioned in the "Tanks at Flers" thread as winning MMs at Flers, High Wood, et al on 15-9-1916. The 9-12-1916 issue also contains NZ force MMs which were most probably at Flers.

I believe that many of the MMs won at Flers-Courcelette, Morval and Thiepval are spread between these two gazettes. Which means that Charles Lay's MM could have been won at either battle....

Steve.

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Hi Guys

Thanks for all your help Will keep plugging away to see what comes out-maybe have to try the local papers to see what floats clear

Cheers

Perce :lol:

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Hi Guys

  Thanks for all your help Will keep plugging away to see what comes out-maybe have to try the local papers to see what floats  clear

                                    Cheers

                                        Perce :lol:

Local papers are a must Perce, without a doubt mate.

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Lovely Steveo, cheers mate. Will get round to establishing who they are this month some time! B) The gazette is really addictive isnt it? :rolleyes:

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Steve,

Looking for information on the 2nd Battalion for April 1918, a local lad was with the, Private Roy Kemp, No 41661 and was killed on the 10th.

Many thanks

Andy

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Hey Andy

He's not in there by name mate, but entry is as follows:

"6 Apr 1918 Battalion in DRAGON CAMP

7 Apr 1918 - Huddleston Camp At 11.30 a.m. the Battalion Marched to HUDDLESTON CAMP C.7.c.5.3. and took over 2 Sections of the BATTLE ZONE "A" & "B" Coys were responsible for "E" Section taking over from 1st/1st Yorkshire Dragoons Cyclist Regiment. "C" & "D" Coys. were responsible for "F" Section taking over from 1st Black Watch.

8 Apr 1918 Dispositions as on 7th

9 Apr 1918 Dispositions as on 7th

10 Apr 1918 Dispositions as on 7th

11 Apr 1918 Dispositions as on 7th A/Captain W.S.Deller appointed Adjutant II Corps Reinforcement Camp and struck off strength of Battalion. 2/Lieut.A.J.H.Rogers from Hospital Major & Quartermaster H.Cressingham D.S.O., D.C.M. to Depot"

There are sections where the casualties are shown down to the last wounded man, but this isnt one of them Im sorry to say. Havent completed formatting the 2nd yet, so this will be a good excuse th do so. If I come across any other dates when he pops up, Ill mail you with it mate.

Cheers :D

Steve

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Steve,

Many thanks, it all helps to piece together the jigsaw. Thanks again Steve, much appreciated.

Andy

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