Broad arrow ordnance mark

[PhilB]

Is the ordnance mark so called because it first was applied to ordnance (ie guns, shells etc)? When could one expect to see its first use on general items of army kit? Phil B

[michaeldr]

Quote: Is the ordnance mark so called because it first was applied to ordnance (ie guns, shells etc)?

Phil,

Yes, and/or because it was first used by the Master of the Ordnance

The following is from ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ by A. C. Fox-Davies

“Although this origin has been disputed it is said to have originated in the fact that one of the Sydney family, when Master of the Ordnance, to prevent disputes as to the stores for which he was responsible, marked everything with his private badge of the broad arrow, and his private badge has since remained in constant use.”

Alas no date given

Regards

Michael D.R.

[roger]

It was certainly used during the Napoleonic wars.

Roger.

[PhilB]

Would that be Henry Sydney, 1st Earl of Romney, Master General of the Ordnance 1693–1702? I take it then that in those early days, the arrow would be applied in the stores. Presumably stencilled on or did metal stamps come in early on? Items not going through stores but direct to the army would not be so marked? Phil B

[PhilB]

Quite right, gents! Quote:-

THE SIDNEY FAMILY EMBLEM

The Pheon - or broad arrow - was used as the symbol to identify government property by Henry Sidney, Earl of Romney who was Master of Ordnance to William and Mary.

Henry was asked to mark all government property in an attempt to reduce theft. He chose to use the Sidney family emblem which can be seen in many places at Penshurst and which is still in use by the government today. The best known use of this symbol is probably on prisoners uniforms but it is still in use by the military.

Just one query - why is it generally used upside down? Phil B

[michaeldr]

Yes that fits

the book, published in 1925, says 'over 200 years' ago

Looks like you've pinned it down nicely

Regards

Michael D.R.

[PhilB]

Interestingly, the net definition says the pheon is a broad arrow with scallops on the inner edges as in the photo, whereas the broad arrow has no scallops. It further says the pheon is a royal badge, while the broad arrow is a military stores badge.

[michaeldr]

The net definition is basically correct “Pheons …are arrow-heads with an inner engrailed edge, while when depicted without this peculiarity they are termed ‘broad arrows’. This is not a distinction very stringently adhered to.”

To go back to the 1925 guide

“Already more than two centuries have passed since it first came into use, and either they should represent to the Government that the pheon is not a Crown mark, and that some recognised Royal badge should be used in its place, or else they should place its status upon a definite footing.”

That’s about all I have on this Phil

Regards

Michael D.R.

[PhilB]

Thanks, michael et al.

[Compo]

Henry Sidney Earl of Romney 1641-1704, as a prominent supporter, was awarded the position of Master of Ordnance by William and Mary in 1689 when they came to the throne.

Some time after he used the broad arrow of his family arms, which is displayed point down, as a device to prevent theft. It has been used to denote government property ever since. Including on prisoners.

The current Sidney family are Viscounts De L'Isle and still live at the family home at Penshurst Place near Tonbridge in Kent and which is open to the public, lots of good medieval arms and such can be seen.

House can be seen at www.penshurstplace.com

Regds Bill

[PhilB]

I suppose that, technically, gents, the ordnance mark is not a pheon (that would be scalloped) but a broad arrow. Phil B

[Cohagan35]

I live in Ireland and I have found a mark on a stone in my houses 1800s stone cowshed. The house was an RIC police station in the 1800s. Is it a broad Arrow mark or another type of British army mark ? 

 

[jay dubaya]

Looks like it may be a Ordnance Survey cut bench mark

 

J

[PhilB]

I'm open to correction but believe it to be an Ordnance Survey mark to show where an altitude measure was taken.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 17/05/2005 at 13:49, PhilB said:

The best known use of this symbol is probably on prisoners uniforms

Yes. Although discontinued about 1922.

 

10 hours ago, Cohagan35 said:

I live in Ireland and I have found a mark on a stone in my houses 1800s stone cowshed. The house was an RIC police station in the 1800s. Is it a broad Arrow mark or another type of British army mark ?

Two points:

1) You don't give any indication of size  of this mark. All the OS bench marks I've seen are smallish, about 3" across.

2) All the bench marksI've ever seen have a clearly distinct arrow pointing up to the line:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ordnance+survey+bench+mark&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFxvTIn9fjAhXYi1wKHa_xAEMQ_AUIESgB&biw=1067&bih=530&dpr=1.2

 

There may be some useful info here with regard to triangulating Ireland:

http://www.trigpointing-ireland.org.uk/about.php?a=define

 

Edited 28 July , 2019 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Cohagan35]

15 hours ago, Cohagan35 said:

I live in Ireland and I have found a mark on a stone in my houses 1800s stone cowshed. The house was an RIC police station in the 1800s. Is it a broad Arrow mark or another type of British army mark ? 

 

 

 

7 high 6 and a half long

 

 

 

[Cohagan35]

16 hours ago, Cohagan35 said:

I live in Ireland and I have found a mark on a stone in my houses 1800s stone cowshed. The house was an RIC police station in the 1800s. Is it a broad Arrow mark or another type of British army mark ? 

 

 

 

7 high 6 and a half long

 

 

I uncovered Another over it 

Edited 28 July , 2019 by Cohagan35

[Terry_Reeves]

It might well be a masons mark.

 

TR

 

 

Edited 28 July , 2019 by Terry_Reeves

[Cohagan35]

I can't find any symbol like it as a masonry mark . And a mason would hardly put his mark on an old cowshed it's usual put on castle churches and things like kerbs built on the roads of london.

Edited 28 July , 2019 by Cohagan35

[Cohagan35]

Cowsheds were also usually built by someone not a stone mason like a family member of neighbour as we were poor here in Ireland at that time under English rule 

Couldn't afford a stonemason

Even RIC police were poor . 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Is this inside the cowshed?

And to clarify, 7 inches high, by 6.5 inches wide?

Edited 28 July , 2019 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Cohagan35]

 Of course the house was probably built by finance of the local gentry who rented the place to the RIC they'd  be able to afford a stone mason. The builder already carved his name on another side of the building so it's hardly a stone mason mark. 

 

yes the carving is behind the door of the shed 

 

 

 

There is already the builders name carved on the gable so it would hardly be a masons mark

[Cohagan35]

Ya in inches as you said there 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 minute ago, Cohagan35 said:

 Of course the house was probably built by finance of the local gentry who rented the place to the RIC they'd  be able to afford a stone mason. The builder already carved his name on another side of the building so it's hardly a stone mason mark. 

 

yes the carving is behind the door of the shed.

We'll a benchmark isn't going to be inside a building. The mark is also too crude and too big.

Could the stone have been reused from somewhere else?

[Cohagan35]

Hardly 

Is it some other British army mark