Jim Strawbridge Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 On the headstone of Emily Hartman, VAD, in Ecclesfield Jewish Cemetery, Sheffield are the initials S.R.H.D.S.I.P. (the first and last initials may be incorrect). I might have guessed at a masonic reference (Hiram and Solomon) but can anyone help me unravel the initials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 Why would it be a Masonic reference Jim? I thought we girls were barred from joining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Strawbridge Posted 15 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2005 That was quick, Kate. Yes, I agree that you girls could not be "on the square" but that is not to say that father, Aaron, wasn't keen to leave his mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 We can become maisonettes though!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 Why would it be a Masonic reference Jim? I thought we girls were barred from joining. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nor did I think that Jews were allowed to join? Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 16 May , 2005 Share Posted 16 May , 2005 Dave-contrary to popular belief (and mine until I moved to an area with a large Jewish population) there are quite a lot of Jewish freemasons, and have been for centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 16 May , 2005 Share Posted 16 May , 2005 Dave-contrary to popular belief (and mine until I moved to an area with a large Jewish population) there are quite a lot of Jewish freemasons, and have been for centuries. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wow! Well, you live and learn! (I take it they still don't allow Catholics though? ) Thanks for that, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 16 May , 2005 Share Posted 16 May , 2005 I dont know much about masonry but I dont think they prevent catholics joining, its the Catholic Church who frown on membership- I believe I am right Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 16 May , 2005 Share Posted 16 May , 2005 So far as I know Dave, Freemasonry is strong in Roman Catholic countries too. Mozart, an Austrian, was a very keen mason. He had been a employee of the Archbishop of Salzburg and continued to make settings of the Mass until his dying day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 16 May , 2005 Share Posted 16 May , 2005 Reminds me of one of the many Ku Klux Klans around a few years ago run by a Georgia man named I think Vennaman, a rival allowed he'd soon be taking blacks though of course using the N word, " He's already taking Catholics!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviltaxman Posted 16 May , 2005 Share Posted 16 May , 2005 As far as i can tell, from much digging and asking of awkward questions, any male of any religion is allowed to join the Masons.... the thing that joins them together is the belief in their "Maker" - so Christians, Catholics, Jews, Muslims etc etc can apply......... but Masonary is a topic for elsewhere me thinks Les (not Brother Les either, before anyone asks) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 16 May , 2005 Share Posted 16 May , 2005 We can become maisonettes though!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Can we? Oh good! Love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 16 May , 2005 Share Posted 16 May , 2005 Sorry about that weak joke Angie. I had a phone call from the Masonic wives once, inviting me to be a guest speaker at one of their meetings. "Masonic wives?" I asked. "Does that make you a maisonette?" She laughed, so they do have a sense of humour; though I still wonder who wears the aprons at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 16 May , 2005 Share Posted 16 May , 2005 Masonary is a topic for elsewhere me thinks <{POST_SNAPBACK}> True. I suppose I should really put these questions to my Father-in-Law who's the "worshipful master" (or whatever it's called!!!) of the Thursby Lodge at the moment!!! He might know!!! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 16 May , 2005 Share Posted 16 May , 2005 Catholicism and free masonry do not mix. Under certain circumstances catholic masons can be denied communion even though since Vatican II there has been a slight warming of relations. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 17 May , 2005 Share Posted 17 May , 2005 Catholicism and free masonry do not mix. Andy <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As member of the Italian P2 lodge Roberto Calvi, financial adviser to the Vatican, might have said when he was left hanging from Blackfriars Bridge in 1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 17 May , 2005 Share Posted 17 May , 2005 Getting back to the original post, we first need to note that nobody so far has been able to suggest what the abbreviations stand for. Agreed that in masonic ritual, Hiram (a stonemason) is involved in building the Temple of Solomon and the murder which is central to the ritual, but apart from that can Jim please expain in a bit more detail why a Jewish woman and former VAD have a masonic instription on her headstone. Most graves in Jewish cemeteries I have seen have had personal details in English on one side and an inscription in Hebrew on the other side and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 17 May , 2005 Share Posted 17 May , 2005 I think we also have to remember that the inscription may not be masonic at all, as the original poster suggests. The lady buried in the grave was Jewish, so perhaps the inscription has more Jewish connections than Masonic ones. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 17 May , 2005 Share Posted 17 May , 2005 Jim, do you have a photo of Emily's grave? What sort of a headstone is it? Is it a Jewish one or is it a CWGC one? Is there a Hebrew inscription as well, which perhaps may provide a way forward? Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Strawbridge Posted 17 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2005 My thoughts about the initials being masonic was only a passing one and it could just as easily relate to a reference to the Old Testament or something else ie the I.P. could be "in peace". I am enjoying the string but does anyone know the meaning of the initials. If anyone can read Hebrew I am happy to show the full inscription. The bit shown is only the lower quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 17 May , 2005 Share Posted 17 May , 2005 Jim, There's nothing I can say about the initials at the bottom. (Yet ... See further) But should you interested in the Hebrew letters before "In Loving Memory". Well at least the 5 on the left side. (And as in Hebrew we start on the right side ..) These 5 letters, from right to left : T (teth), N (noen), TS (Tsadee), B (beth), H (hee). And they are the initial so fth ereligious expression : Tehi Nasja Tsroera Bitsror Hahaïm This means : May her soul rest in peace. Or more accurately : May her soul be bound in the pouch of life (near God). (I am translating this from Dutch into English, so maybe it is not that accurate.) Right from your very first posting I thought thatr somehow your 7 initials may have something to do with these traditional Hebrew characters on all Jewish graves. Enforced in my belief that indeed I and P may stand for In Peace, and who knows, the S for Soul? The Hebrew words I quoted appear to be First Book of Samuel, chapter 25, verse 29. So, an answer to the question if these 7 initials at the bottom are related to the 5 Hebrew signs could be found in an English bible I guess ? (Which I do not have...) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 17 May , 2005 Share Posted 17 May , 2005 Assuming it`s English, maybe something like GOD REST HER DEAR SOUL IN PEACE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 17 May , 2005 Share Posted 17 May , 2005 1 Samuel 29: Yet a man is risen to pursue thee and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the Lord thy God: and the sould of thine enemies them shall he sling out, as out of the middle of a sling. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 17 May , 2005 Share Posted 17 May , 2005 Thanks, Tom. And apparently I was on the wrong track with the Hebrew letters ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 17 May , 2005 Share Posted 17 May , 2005 Thanks, Tom. And apparently I was on the wrong track with the Hebrew letters ... Aurel <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, Aurel, I think you have provided the answer! The letters are indeed part of Jewish tradition, I think. If you go to This Website you will see a picture of another Jewish grave but this one has the inscription at the bottom, "God Rest His Dear Soul In Peace", just as m13pgb sugested. I also found a website which recorded Jewish graves in a cemetery in ireland. No photos, just transcriptions of the inscriptions and several of them have G R H D S I P and there is also G R T D S I P - which must be "God rest THEIR Dear Souls In Peace - on graves which commemorate husband and wife burials. There is also M H D S R I P - presumably "May His/Her Dear Soul Rest In Peace." Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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