david murdoch Posted 13 May , 2005 Share Posted 13 May , 2005 Arm. Hello again - thread's taken off this time. Here is one of the casualties I found Horace Edwin Porter,38860 MGC (M), Gunner, 6th L.A.M.B, Died 8/6/18, Tehran. His MGC number is to high for him to have been M.M.G.S/R.A. So he either transfered into MGC with that rank, or it was used by the MGC. Will need to download his MIC, to see if he came from in from another unit, and if like the others is ranked as private. As I mentioned before when I first saw this I just assumed with him being in an armoured car unit the rank refered in his case to him being a machine gunner. The L.A.M.B training book referes to No.1 and No.2 gunners - so it was maybe in common usage amongst themselves and refered to position within the car crew, though officially (and pay check) they were privates. So it is maybe a "trade" rather than actual rank - but it must have been common enough to get as far as being used on headstones. Now it has also been mentioned quite rightly that they would have used gunners in (male) tanks, which were MGC(M) Heavy Branch. Also some of the armoured car/mobile units L.A.B (Light Armoured Battery) and L.A.M.B (Light Armoured Motor Battery) also towed around light field guns - which would also require "real " gunners. Also (to confuse the issue still further) a good many of the L.A.M.B personnel were A.S.C (car drivers/backup personnel), and the officers from cavalry regiments - so what would they wear badge wise? On another note. One of the other casualties I found was Robert Mudie,Private 1574 MGC(M), 13th L.A.M.B, died 15/6/17. Baghdad Now that is a very close number to I. MacGregor ! He must also have been M.M.G.S/R.A. and also transfered from bikes to cars, as my grandfather did. I've been interested in him for a while, as he is another Scot - he came from a little village called Menmuir outside Brechin (North of Dundee), but I have not found out anything else about him. He must have been one of the "originals" but is not a gunner, while Porter who has a later MGC number is! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 13 May , 2005 Share Posted 13 May , 2005 If you take a look at my avatar - that is my grandfather's L.A.M.B badge. It was worn on the side of their tropical helmets, and also painted on the side of some of the cars. I don't know when this came into being, I recon it was someone's idea to form a unit identity (possibly when several L.A.M.B were grouped into a L.A.M.B Brigade) and something that would be worn by everyone in the unit whether MGC/ASC. It is about 2" square tinplate - punched on the corners for sewing on. It is black background, and the "lamb" must have been white originally. It is hard to tell if it was stenciled or hand painted - Maybe they got a batch of them made up "down the market". It is a similar idea to a WW2 "Desert Rat" patch. I guess it must be pretty rare as only a few must have been made, and peculiar to Mesopotamia - wonder how many made it back to the UK. I have one picture of my grandfather in Mesopotamia, wearing it, in the picture he is also wearing a shirt with MGC buttons,and also visible his MGC (M) shoulder title, and MG sleeve patch above his stripes. Just a thought, but maybe the use of "Gunner" in the MGC was applied to privates who had earned their MG patch! David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 13 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 13 May , 2005 David more good imformation though I fear it adds to the confusion rather than clears it, but still that just intrigues me even more. I find the men with similar numbers having different ranks designations strange but perhaps he may have changed unit and thus designation? As you say it may have been that the 'Gunner' title stuck even after re-orginisation. Confused Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 14 May , 2005 Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Derek, Your chap is a different battn. 13th Tank Corps. Where as mine are classed as 4th Battn. MGC (Motors). To me that says two different coprs. How are you arriving at them both being Tank units? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Arm, There's a niggling idea in my head that goes something like this. At the formation of the HSMGC there were 4 battalions assembled, designated A to D battalions. As the Corps expanded the letters were changed to numbered battalions, eg "D" battalion became 4th Bn. There may have been a 4th Bn. MGC (to do with machine-guns) but I'm under the illusion/impression that the 4th Bn. MGC (Motors) were tanks. Thus, I believe all our men were tankies. Not from different Corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 14 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Derek, There must be a way of tracing the linage of a unit through out its war. Just wish i knew where and how to do it. Many years ago i read a book about Tanks that listed all the battalions and there designations. Trouble is cant remember which it was. Seem to recall it was a large paper back and poss printed by someone who was connected to Bovington Tank Museum. I think also there was one about Armoured cars. Still confused Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 14 May , 2005 Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Arm, To stoke the interest. The NA has the following diary which if I have followed this thread correctly should be your men. http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov....&accessmethod=5 This is part of First Army part of 1 Motor Brigade Machine Gun Corps as of November 1918 the last submitted record of this outfit. Do not be confused by the word Battalion, the electronic scanning process for MIC's does not diffrentiate greatly when editing is done by clerical staff rather than WW! buffs. Roop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 14 May , 2005 Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Roop, The "4 Motor Machine Gun Battery" really opens up a can of proverbial with the term "Battery". What type of unit is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 14 May , 2005 Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Seem to recall it was a large paper back and poss printed by someone who was connected to Bovington Tank Museum. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Arm, The chap was probably David Fletcher and it was in an article written by him that I'm vaguely recalling some of my details (or lack of them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 14 May , 2005 Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Well Derek, I can only rely on the NA titles which seem reasonably correct on past experience. The actual content of this diary is unknown but it would be interesting to find out. As mentioned, if the word Battalion (Batt) came from MIC's some caution should be excercised due tot he scanning process. Roop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 14 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Roop, The "4 Motor Machine Gun Battery" really opens up a can of proverbial with the term "Battery". What type of unit is this? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This would seem to back up what my chap told me the other night about it being 4th battery not 4th Battalion. Battery would definately to me say not tanks but MG or poss Armoured Cars! Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 14 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Arm, The chap was probably David Fletcher and it was in an article written by him that I'm vaguely recalling some of my details (or lack of them). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Derek, Possibly. i do seem to recall that there was a set of them and some included WW2. I think one was about Hobarts funnies! Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spud Trevor Posted 14 May , 2005 Share Posted 14 May , 2005 I'm not sure if this is of any interest in the discussion. I have a plaque to a Charles Frankham, listed on the Kirkee Memorial in India. Both the C.W.G.C & S.D.G.W list him as Machine Gun Corps (Motors) - Rank: Gunner - Number: 191936, 3rd Bty. (C.W.G.C) However, his M.I.C lists him as simply Private - Machine Gun Corps, formerly Private, Royal Warwickshire Regt. Regards, Spud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 The book you recall is called "War Cars" by David Fletcher - Librarian at the Tank museum in Bovington. It is a great book, loaded with excellent photos of early armoured vehicles (not just cars) - there is a lot on the Rolls Royce, but there were also a loads of other types and "experimental" vehicles too. There is a section on the bikes. Also a list of units at the back - which is credited to Charles Messenger! If you look at the Long Long Trail - go into Army > Machine Gun Corps, then click the link to Motor Machine Gun units - gives a good amount of info and down the bottom a list of the Batteries. Most of these early units were Batteries - both the original M.M.G.S bike units, and the car units L.A.B (Light Armoured Battery),A.M.B (Armoured Motor Battery), L.A.M.B (Light Armoured Motor Battery). Battalions and Brigades came later when these units were grouped together. There were quite a lot of hybrid units too. The armoured car units, also used bikes (solos and combos) too scout terrain ahead and provide flank cover, and as mentioned before some also towed a couple light field guns. Bear in mind too the earliest cars belonged to the R.N.A.S (Navy) and then were handed over to army M.G.C(M) control - So you could have a connection from that side - as in "naval battery". The thing that complicates this all so much is that it seems to have been a very fluid situation which was evolving quickly all the time. As the war progressed the conditions changed, and equipment and tactics adapted to suit,as all this was new and untried. It really was the "cutting edge" technology of the day. Also the guys who had the vision to set this up and push for it were up against old Army establishment of the "what's wrong with horses" mentality. My grandfather's particular Rolls Royce, started it's days with the R.N.A.S, then taken over by the army in France with the MGC, went to Mesopotamia, and then was taken over by the Tank Corps into an Armoured Car Company when the MGC finished up. David P.S sorry if I got a bit "off topic"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 15 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2005 The long long trail has some good info but still does not offer conclusive evedence atleast not in my understanding. But i will try and post another topic to see if it gets anyones attention to MGC histories etc. regards Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 I've just received this: "The Tank Corps had its own trade rank system a lot like the RAF. The army rank of private was given to gunners (gunner being the trade rank). These men can often be seen wearing the trade badges on the sleeve of the left arm (often the Machine Gun trade badge) and the tank crewman badge on the right arm level with the top pocket. Privates were also mechanics they wore the crossed hammer and pincers badge just below the tank crew badge.........assuming they were crew. 700 recruits were transfered from the 'Motor Machine Gun Service - Royal Artillery)' for duty in what was first called the 'Armoured Car Section'. In May 1916 these men reported to Bisley and were now classified as 'Heavy Section Machine Gun Corps'. On 16th November 1916 this Corps was renamed "Heavy Branch Machine Gun Corps". This Branch was renamed the Tank Corps by Royal Warrant after the atcions of the 28th July 1917." Now - and I'm guessing here, and hope that Terry Denham maybe able to confirm, if a tankie was killed prior to 28/7/17 his headstone would carry the identification "Machine Gun Corps (Motors). Those killed after this date would have "Tank Corps". However, from our examples above, this does not bear out. Terry...................it's over to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 Its gets even more complicated: The Machine Gun Corps had their own armoured branch until the end of WW1. These men were The Machine Gun Corps (Motors). These men served in armoured cars as well as Model T's. Some on the Western Front and some in Mespot. Like the Tanks Corps the rank of Gunner was given to privates in the MGC.....the men who operated the machine guns. Sergeants were normally drivers. I might also add that Army Service Corps WO's were sometimes used as tank drivers too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 15 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2005 So i am coming to the conclusion that in reality they were privates but known as Gunners. That the unit was 4th Battery and that they were motorbike combi vickers gun mounted (This is from Charles Messenger) The CWGC should read 4th battery not battalion. I wonder if this is the end. I have enjoyed the learning curve on this one. Perhaps we are not done yet, regards Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 That the unit was 4th Battery and that they were motorbike combi vickers gun mounted (This is from Charles Messenger) The CWGC should read 4th battery not battalion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Arm, Sorry to spoil your picnic but I can't see where your "battery" comes from. The CWGC states 4th Bn. I stick with my original assessment that your men were both tankies of the 4th Bn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 15 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2005 I am of the opinion that the CWGC has the wrong designation listed. The result of end of war amalgamations and similar (batty/ Battn) unit designations. This would not be the first time. There was no 4th Battn. MGC (Motors) but there was a 4th Batty MGC (Motors), hence my reasoning. that said i do realise that there was possibly a 4th battalion Tank Corps but i do not know where they were stationed. Stop peeing on my picnic you old man! regards Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD60 Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 In case it may help to conclude with this intersting topic: Here are some soldiers (whose I have grave's photo) with rank Gunner insribed MARSH, LAWRENCE Initials: L Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Gunner Regiment: Machine Gun Corps (Motors) Unit Text: 8th Bty. Age: 34 Date of Death: 07/06/1916 Service No: 1464 Additional information: Son of Joseph and Ann Marsh, of Newcastle-under-Lyme; husband of Annie Marsh, of 29, West Brampton, Newcastle-under-Lyme. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: B. 27. Cemetery: AGNY MILITARY CEMETERY Name: JONES Initials: D J Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Gunner Regiment: Machine Gun Corps (Motors) Unit Text: 1st Bty. Age: 19 Date of Death: 26/09/1918 Service No: 79521 Additional information: Son of Daniel Jones, of 29, High St., Abergwill, Carmarthen. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: X. E. 21. Cemetery: MENDINGHEM MILITARY CEMETERY PARKINSON Initials: S F Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Gunner Regiment: Machine Gun Corps (Motors) Unit Text: "D" Bty. Date of Death: 20/04/1917 Service No: 40082 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: I. D. 17. Cemetery: GREVILLERS BRITISH CEMETERY Heavy branch in CWGC but Motors on the grave: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/tanneguy.desplanqu...ps%20motors.jpg STREET, DOUGLAS Initials: D Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Lance Corporal Regiment: Machine Gun Corps (Heavy Branch) Unit Text: "C" Bn. Heavy Branch Age: 22 Date of Death: 23/04/1917 Service No: 76446 Additional information: Son of William Charles and Minnie Street, of West Cowes, Isle of Wight. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: V. B. 31. Cemetery: FAUBOURG D'AMIENS CEMETERY, ARRAS Here a grave of Heavy branch => rank "Private" on the grave http://perso.wanadoo.fr/tanneguy.desplanqu...rps%20heavy.jpg As I indicated in this post some days ago, it seems that gunners is used to replace private for those belonging to MGC Motors. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 There was no 4th Battn. MGC (Motors) but there was a 4th Batty MGC (Motors), hence my reasoning. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Arm, There WAS a 4th Bn. MGC (Motors) And I quote: " In November 1916, the Companies were expanded to Battalions, carrying the same letter designations. A Battalion consisted of 3 Companies. Three mobile workshops provided the engineering back-up to service the tanks. An expansion programme was ordered by GHQ, to build a force of 14 additional Battalions. The Tank Corps was formed from the Heavy Branch MGC on 27 July 1917, and the Battalions adopted numbering rather than letter designations (although tank names followed the same lettering; that is, 7th Bn Tanks were all named with a letter G, like Grouse, Grumble, etc.) Thus a Tank Battalion had a complement of 32 officers 374 men." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 15 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2005 Oh Bum! Perhaps my chap meant by 1918 there was no 4th Battn. MGC (Motors) only 4th battn Tank Corps. Where you getting this info from. If you check the mother site it does not name battalions but battery's regards Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 16 May , 2005 Share Posted 16 May , 2005 Where you getting this info from. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "The Long, Long Trail" TANKS Royal Tank Regiment WFA article on Tanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 16 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2005 Derek, These make reference to Heavy section MGC, not the MGC (Motors). To me they are two different branches. i have no arguement that the heavy section went on to be the Tank Corps. The companies that were expanded to Battalions were from this heavy section not from Motors! regards Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 16 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2005 Derek here is the info that Charles Messenger has posted on another thread i did. Arm Having only just picked up on the parallel MGC(Motors) thread which you started earlier, my belief is that your two men belonged to No 4 Battery Motor Machine Gun Service, which was in France at this time. It was equipped with six Vickers and 18 motorcycle combinations. Its war diary can be found under WO 95/246 at Kew. There was also a 4th Light Armoured Battery MGC(Motors), but this served in East Africa and Egypt and was disbanded in summer 1917. The use of `battalion' on the gravestones may possibly reflect the fact that the surviving MMGS btys were amalgamated into the Motor Machine Gun Bn of the MGC in 1919 before being disbanded, along with the remainder of the MGC, in 1922. Charles M Regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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