The "Disappearing" Regiment at Gallipoli?

[cliff brown]

This young casualty might be of interest from the Salters Lode war memorial in Norfolk

George HARNWELL

2125 Pte, 1/5th Norfolk Rgt. Captured during the attack of 12-8-15, died 21-8-15, Prisoner of War, age 16 (sixteen). Born and enlisted Downham Market. Son of George & Mary Elizabeth Harnwell, Bridge Rd, Downham West. Special Memorial, Haida Pascha Cemetery, Turkey.

[Tim Godden]

Hi Cliff

Thanks for that information. It is interseting as he does not appear in the list of P.O.W.s that I have. But it seems to pan out given the memorial. Is this information on the memorial? I would be very interested in a photo if you have or could get hold of one.

Many thanks,

Tim

[NedRutland]

There is no written records of the Rev Pierrepoint Edwards MC to back this up, the main evidence appears to be anecdotal from Gordon Edwards a post war friend of the Reverend, he corresponded with the Gallipolian magazine in the 1960's over this matter but of course this was second hand information and certainly would not have stood up in a court of law.

At the risk of appearing a pedant, "Gordon Edwards" should be Gordon Parker - a distant relative of mine.

To quote All the King’s Men by Nigel McCreary, (p115-6):

“Gordon Parker had been a signaller with the Royal Engineers attached to the 54th Division and had been with them in Gallipoli during the time of the battalion’s disappearance. He was a straightforward, level-headed man with a good business sense, who after the war became a self-made millionaire. At one time he purchased Felixstowe docks to help solve a business problem over importing and exporting his merchandise. Parker wrote to the Gallipolian that some years after the war he had met his old friend the Rev Pierrepoint Edwards MC and that they had quite naturally talked about the campaign. The subject of the disappearance of the 5th Norfolks came up and the Rev Edwards told him about the finding of the mass grave containing the remains of many of the Norfolks. He went on however, to tell him something that had not been included in any report or known conversation before, namely that every man he had found had been shot in the head. The Rev Edwards had no reason to lie, or exaggerate. His mission had in many ways been a personal crusade to try to find the truth about what befell a group of men for whom he had great regard. In any attack a certain number of both attacking and defending soldier might be expected to be shot in the head but it is beyond belief that it could have happened to all of them”

And to quote from one of my grandfather's letters home from Gallipoli (Billy Bennett; Norfolk Yeomanry) 16th October 1915; “Just after I wrote last, Gordon Parker came round to look me up. He is a sergeant in the Engineers headquarters telegraph office or something of that sort, at any rate he seems to have rather a good job.”

Best wishes to all,

"Ned"

[Guest sqnldrspud]

Was the myth of the disappearing 1/5th Norfolk at Gallipoli (August 15, 1915) ever officially resolved? What was the official determination as to what happened to this Battalion on that day?

I would be interested if any Pals could point me to any on line or other sources of information about this event, and the investigation into the actions of the 1/5th.

Thanks in advance

David

As well as a BBC drama about thisd subject, there is a book called "All the King's Men" by Nigel McCrery ISBN 0-671-01831-0 that you may be able to get hold of.

Not all of the battalion disappeared, at least 14 including two officers turned up as PoW's after the war.

Hope that this helps.

Sqnldrspud

[bob lembke]

That said, the location and condition (ID Tags and souvineers removed) of the bodies, together with the (at the risk of an unfair generalisation) Turkish attitude to British dead (afterall we were the invader) would suggest that of all the conspiracy thoeries that I have heard and of all the myths surrounding the fate of the 5th Norfolks, this would seem the most plausable.

My father fought at the ANZAC bridgehead with the Turks, although later than this incident, and loved them; he thought they were the best soldiers, generally, except the best German storm troopers. (He later served in Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer), the first and largest storm unit, but not widely known {Let me state for the record that the Germans or Turks did not use flame-throwers at Gallipoli; all we need is another false story starting}, and later with the famed Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr), or Storm Battalion Rohr, so he knew these troops.) The Turks being the best soldiers in spirit, not technically.

There is an interesting story in Kannengieser's memoirs (He was a German colonel who commanded a Turkish division at Gallipoli); he was in the trenches but his troops did not see him; three or four Turks drew their lunch, probably some pita bread (hubil's arabie), some olives, a cucumber, a pickled fish, or whatever, and looked about as to where to eat. As you know Turks traditionally like to sit on the floor, on a cushion, and eat at a very low table. So they pried the cadavers of two or three Turks who had been killed, and had been buried in the trench parapets two weeks or two months before (why waste perfectly good sandbags?), formed them into a little table, and put their food down and ate, chatting happily. Kannengieser peeked around a trench corner at this and said to himself: "I knew that these guys were tough, but this is rediculous!!" I believe that at almost every stage of Gallipoli the Turks were not only terribly deficient in lots of arms and supplies, but were outnumbered by the invaders. Very, very tough guys.

One interesting thing, also, if memory serves, from Kannengieser, or possibly another German commander. Supposedly the command had figured out that the ANZACs and the Brits were leaving, but they could not get the Turkish troops to charge the embarking Allied troops; at this point they supposedly thought that they had won, the invader was leaving, and why get killed now, wait and then enjoy the fine pickings in the Allied positions. Don't know if this is true.

Bob Lembke