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Remembered Today:

The "Disappearing" Regiment at Gallipoli?


David_Bluestein

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Was the myth of the disappearing 1/5th Norfolk at Gallipoli (August 15, 1915) ever officially resolved? What was the official determination as to what happened to this Battalion on that day?

I would be interested if any Pals could point me to any on line or other sources of information about this event, and the investigation into the actions of the 1/5th.

Thanks in advance

David

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Hello David.

I have seen a book in my local library about this,although i can't remember the title,for the life of me.

I will look it up next time i am down there,unless some one can beat me to it.

I seem to remember that the film,was based on this book.

This was the battalion that was raised from the workers on the Sandringham Estate of his majesty King George the fifth,and i believe the lead in the film,was taken by David Jason.

I will check up on the title as soon as i can.

A very interesting story.

Regards.

Simon Furnell.

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Hello David,

I remember watching a documentry in which they went to the area and found a lot of bone and a few scraps of uniform,mainly in a barn or some such building. And they talked to the locals and i think a veteran (turk) who said all the men had been killed as they could not keep them or treat the wounded as they had little enough food or medical supplies for themselves let alone prisoners. :unsure:

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The book is also called 'all The King's Men' by Nigel McCrery. There was also a TV documentary made, if I recall correctly, by Prince Edward's ill-fated production company. The TV drama with David Jason has its moments (notably an affecting performance by Maggie Smith as Queen Alexandra) but some of the Gallipoli sequences are frankly ludicrous, notably the rape of a female sniper. Also, due presumably to budgetary restrictions, the climax of the film gives the wholly erroneous impression that the Sandringham company attacked the Turkish positions completely on its own on 12th August 1915.

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Guest Hill 60
There was also a TV documentary made, if I recall correctly, by Prince Edward's ill-fated production company.

I have (still in a package crate) the video of David Jason's performance.

I don't know much about Gallipoli, so I found the film quite enjoyable as I didn't spot glaring bloopers! Must agree on the attempted rape scene, and also the sex scene in the Conscientious Objector's house was, in my view, totally unwarranted.

On my video, Prince Edward's documentry is after the film.

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David,

Have look under 'Chit-Chat' for a thread entitled "All the King's Men"

which commenced on 30th Jan for some more useful ideas on this

Regards

Michael D.R.

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Thanks to all for your very helpful suggestions! I will investigate all leads provided.

Best wishes

David

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

If remember correctly the Gallipoli scenes in 'All the King's Men' were filmed in Spain, with David Jason playing the part of Capt Frank Beck, who he had an uncanny resemblance to.

Ian

:)

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Guest Hill 60
with David Jason playing the part of Capt Frank Beck,

I read an article about the programme in the Radio Times, just before it was shown. David Jason had been interviewed and said something on the lines of that he'd only do the role if the filming was not done on the cheap. He wanted it filmed as realisticly as possible and wouldn't be in a film where 10 men invaded the beaches of Brighton!

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Jim

Thanks for your posting of the link to the IWM site.

In the interests of dispelling the 'vanishing' myth I recommend that everyone goes there and reads the article. And, if you have Stand To! No 58 dated April 2000 please also read Dick Rayner's 'the Sandringhams at Suvla Bay'.

With a bit of luck we might end up with Forum members who are acquainted with properly researched history rather than a drama with a good story.

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With a bit of luck we might end up with Forum members who are acquainted with properly researched history rather than a drama with a good story.

The Gallipoli Association was very grateful for the cooperation of Anne Clayton and the WFA in allowing the reproduction and distribution of Dick Rayner's excellent article to TGA members.

I would like to support Chris Basey's plea that members of this forum acquaint themselves with the facts of this story and not be swayed by examples of 'dramatic licence.' As Col Michael Hickey put it when writing in 'The Gallipolian' No.91 Winter 1999:

"It is a matter for some sorrow that this film, which could have been superb had it stuck to known facts and not introduced so much fiction, is likely to become the benchmark for the British contribution in that terrible, yet heroic campaign."

Regards

Michael D.R.

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Guest Hill 60
With a bit of luck we might end up with Forum members who are acquainted with properly researched history rather than a drama with a good story.

I found the film just that - a film. If you watch the documentry after the film it is like watching 'The Bill' and 'M.I.T.', both are roughly about the same thing but very different!

That's probably why I joined the Galliopli Association, to learn more :mellow:

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  • 5 months later...

Visiting Azmac cemetery a couple of years ago, or so, I was moved by a poppy cross left in the centre of the cemetery which simply read:

The 5th Norfolks

Ill served by the BBC

I think that sums it all up in eight words.

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Martin,

Many thanks for that reminder of a great holiday

I think that there may well be a connection between the two above posts [your's and Lee's]

If I remember correctly, The Gallipoli Association tour group were only a day or so ahead of us on Len Sellers' RND tour and I strongly suspect that it was they who left this particular mark of respect

Very Best Regards

Michael D.R.

post-2-1070176049.jpg

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I had three relatives with this battalion,

Pte Earnest Miller, Great Uncle

Pte 290318 Charles Miller, Great Grandfather

Pte 2867 George Miller, Great Uncle (Helles Memorial)

George Stanley was one of the 142 other ranks and 15 officers who were reported missing on the 12th August 1915 following the illfated attack at Suvla Bay. the Battalion pushed on further than units on either flank they were cut off, surrounded in a deserted farm complex and this was set alight by the Turkish defenders (it is unclear whether this was intenional or not). What is clear however is that when the battlefield was being cleared in the 1920's around 150 bodies of the 5th Norfolks were uncovered in a shallow grave in a ravine not far from the farm (the farm buildings still stand and show signs of fire damage). Most of the bodies had received a single bullet wound. My Great Grandmother passed away in 1997 aged 98 beliving her Brother in law had been whisked away by a strange cloud to a better place, we could never pluck up the courage to tell her the truth.

All the kings Men did little to dispell the many myths surrounding the fate of the 5th Norfolks, perhaps the least mentioned fact is that they were a pre war TF battalion that recruited from all over Norfolk. only one of the eight companies was raised from the Sandringham Estate, the majority of men coming from Great Yarmouth, perhaps that wouldn't have made such an interesting TV show though. The other fact worth mentioning is that the 12th August was not the end for the 5th Norfolks, as part of the 54th (East Anglian) Division they were to suffer even greater casualties on the 19th April 1917 in Palestine, over 200 in a single day.

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Guest Pete Wood
Most of the bodies had received a single bullet wound. My Great Grandmother passed away in 1997 aged 98 beliving her Brother in law had been whisked away by a strange cloud to a better place, we could never pluck up the courage to tell her the truth.

May I just ask if there is any hard facts concerning the 'single bullet wound' which some (I'm not suggesting you, Clive), have suggested means that these men were executed....?? Did the Rev Pierrepoint Edwards, or A.N. Other, actually write this down?? Or is it another myth??

For some time, I have also pondered on the "loaf-shaped cloud" and wondered if the 'witnesses' (who may or may not have actually been able to see the events??) actually confused the cockney expression 'brown bread' with the fate of these men.....

Aussie Cpl: "Did you hear about the Norfolks? They've gone up in smoke, mate - brown bread."

Aussie Private passes on the info to his pal: "The Corporal says they disappeared in a cloud, shaped like a Hovis tin. Spooky eh?" etc.

Just a thought.....

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I to am always sceptical to sensational quips like "every man had been shot in the head", I have studied the subject of the Great war for long enough to realise that history can also be very ordinary & not always a conspiracy theory. There is no written records of the Rev Pierrepoint Edwards MC to back this up, the main evidence appears to be anecdotal from Gordon Edwards a post war friend of the Reverend, he corresponded with the Gallipolian magazine in the 1960's over this matter but of course this was second hand information and certainly would not have stood up in a court of law.

That said, the location and condition (ID Tags and souvineers removed) of the bodies, together with the (at the risk of an unfair generalisation) Turkish attitude to British dead (afterall we were the invader) would suggest that of all the conspiracy thoeries that I have heard and of all the myths surrounding the fate of the 5th Norfolks, this would seem the most plausable.

I am sure you to have read Nigel McCrery's book on the subject, it appears to be the standard work on this incident, he goes into Gordan Edwards suggestion in some detail in there, if you havn't a copy its worthwhile sourcing one, my Great Uncle George Stanley Miller appears in the casualty index and a photograph should have appeared of him on the contemporary newspaper article reproduced inside(alas he has been cropped by the publisher!) This I would suggest is a far better starting point when researching the 5th Norfolks as opposed the the David Jason thingy!

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  • 3 months later...

Hi There,

I know this is quite a while ago now but just incase anyone is still interested.

I was involved in the filming of the BBC production a few years ago now and have done a fair bit of research into the battalion itself.

The programme and the book both do very little to disencourage the myth of the disappearance of the battalion. If anything they make it even more mysterious.

The report by Rev Pierpoint-Edwards did not, I suspect,make a mention of these single shot wounds. As far as the cloud theory this was introduced by New Zealand veterans in 1965 on a return visit. They quoted the wrong place, date and battalion. Yet the story stuck. Before that it was pretty well known what had happened. One of the Officers Major Tom Purdy kept an excellent diary which I was able to attian a copy of from his son. It was never published so is hard to get hold of. It explains quite clearly that the 5th advanced over scrub land with little resistance. Thus they moved further than the battalions either side, with the result that they got cut of and were surrounded.

The Sandringhams were one part of one company, C company, that of the Aylsham and North Walsham Company. The simplest of things quashes the myth, look at the Sandringham War Memorial, there is not enough to make a platoon on there let alone a battalion. Mcrery quoted the diary in his book, but only as far as was useful to strengthen the myth.

There is, in my mind no definative work on the myth because it does not need one. There is a book, however, written by a chap called Tom Williamson called 'THe Day the Hills Caught Fire' which is about his experinces that day with the 5th. The title coming from the other myth that the Turks set the scrub land on fire. A point which the P-E investigation put down to shellfire and rifle fire.

I do have a copy of the diary and if I can get one of my brothers in England to send it to me of scan a few pages in I will try and post the 12th August 1915 if anyone would be interested.

All the best,

Tim

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I do have a copy of the diary and if I can get one of my brothers in England to send it to me of scan a few pages in I will try and post the 12th August 1915 if anyone would be interested.

If you can do that Tim, then I think it will be very interesting indeed

Regards

Michael D.R.

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  • 1 month later...

Sorry for the delay. I have brought the diary back with me after a trip back to Blighty and will endeavour to post the relevant material in the near future.

All the best,

Tim

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