Lancashire Fusiliers officer badges and buttons - questions on different versions

[Poelcappelle]

15 hours ago, battle of loos said:

good evening,

on the field.

but now, it's building.

 

Thank you Michel.  (I asked to understand the circumstances of how the button got there - objects in rivers can move far.  But it seems like you found this button where it may have originally been lost.)

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Hello @Poelcappelle

The fourth of the photographs that you have posted in the opening post is in fact my grandfather, Norman Hall (referenced in my signature below if you are logged in when you read this).

The version of the portrait photo that you have used is one that I supplied the Britain at War Magazine to illustrate an article about my GF's published memoir, A Lancashire Fusilier's First World War.. They superimposed the portrait photo over another image, an image of one of the letters that my GF had written home to his mother, just after surviving a traumatic period at the front opposite Guillemont in which he lost some of his best friends. The resultant image occupied a full page in the magazine.

The family's information is that the portrait photograph was taken in 1916.

My GF was gazetted on 7 July 1916 as temporary captain wef 8 May 1916. He has pasted into his memoir a letter dated 26 May 1916 from the Adjutant authorising him to wear the insignia of a captain in advance of publication of the promotion in the London Gazette, so the photo would have been taken sometime after that date. As you would expect, it was taken in his home town of Bury. He had had home leave in February 1916, and did not then return to Britain until he was seriously wounded in the Battle of Ginchy on 9 September 1916, following which he spent about 9 months in Britain recovering. He was discharged from hospital in London and sent home to Bury on 1 November 1916, so the photograph was taken some time after that, possibly even into early 1917. He was passed fit for light duties in January 1917 and sent to Ripon on the 10th of that month, but had occasional home leave at weekends etc. He went back to the western front in June 1917, returning to Bury for a further short period of leave over Christmas in 1917.

My guess is that the family, having nearly lost my GF in September 1916, would have made sure that they had an up-to-date photo before he returned to the front in June 1917.

I have some of my grandfather's buttons, all with the sphinx and the word Egypt on them, plus just one cap badge, the type with the scroll and flared plume. The grenade is gold coloured, and the scroll grey metal. I do not have his "T". I also have one grenade badge without the scroll. Both badges have the word Egypt on them. I suppose that there is no guarantee that what I have was actually worn by my GF during the war, especially as there is not a full set, but I like to think that at least the buttons would have come from an item that he wore.

You do not say why you have a special interest in the 2/7th LF, or which particular officer you are interested. I do have a copy of the History of the Lancashire Fusilier's 1914-1916, and could have a look for you if you think that there may be anything regarding the officer in that.

[Poelcappelle]

7 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Hello @Poelcappelle

The fourth of the photographs that you have posted in the opening post is in fact my grandfather, Norman Hall (referenced in my signature below if you are logged in when you read this).

The version of the portrait photo that you have used is one that I supplied the Britain at War Magazine to illustrate an article about my GF's published memoir, A Lancashire Fusilier's First World War.. They superimposed the portrait photo over another image, an image of one of the letters that my GF had written home to his mother, just after surviving a traumatic period at the front opposite Guillemont in which he lost some of his best friends. The resultant image occupied a full page in the magazine.

The family's information is that the portrait photograph was taken in 1916.

My GF was gazetted on 7 July 1916 as temporary captain wef 8 May 1916. He has pasted into his memoir a letter dated 26 May 1916 from the Adjutant authorising him to wear the insignia of a captain in advance of publication of the promotion in the London Gazette, so the photo would have been taken sometime after that date. As you would expect, it was taken in his home town of Bury. He had had home leave in February 1916, and did not then return to Britain until he was seriously wounded in the Battle of Ginchy on 9 September 1916, following which he spent about 9 months in Britain recovering. He was discharged from hospital in London and sent home to Bury on 1 November 1916, so the photograph was taken some time after that, possibly even into early 1917. He was passed fit for light duties in January 1917 and sent to Ripon on the 10th of that month, but had occasional home leave at weekends etc. He went back to the western front in June 1917, returning to Bury for a further short period of leave over Christmas in 1917.

My guess is that the family, having nearly lost my GF in September 1916, would have made sure that they had an up-to-date photo before he returned to the front in June 1917.

I have some of my grandfather's buttons, all with the sphinx and the word Egypt on them, plus just one cap badge, the type with the scroll and flared plume. The grenade is gold coloured, and the scroll grey metal. I do not have his "T". I also have one grenade badge without the scroll. Both badges have the word Egypt on them. I suppose that there is no guarantee that what I have was actually worn by my GF during the war, especially as there is not a full set, but I like to think that at least the buttons would have come from an item that he wore.

You do not say why you have a special interest in the 2/7th LF, or which particular officer you are interested. I do have a copy of the History of the Lancashire Fusilier's 1914-1916, and could have a look for you if you think that there may be anything regarding the officer in that.

Thank you very much for your touching post.  I do respect the efforts you have made to honour your grandfather.  How wonderful it is that his diaries are in the IWM!  The photograph of him is magnificent.  I can tell he wore his uniform with pride.  It's also an extremely helpful source of information to me on LF buttons and badges.  I will be sure to read properly the information at the link you provided.  If time permits, I would be especially interested to learn more about his cap badge that you described, which if I'm not mistaken seems to be different from the version he wears in the photograph, which appears to be bronze?

My interest in the 2/7th BN LF stems from the fact that an ancestor was the CO (LCol W. A. Hobbins).  Like your grandfather, he spent a period of convalescence in England after being wounded.  I have no images of him in uniform and therefore would be thrilled if any photographs could be found of his battalion, but I imagine the chances of this are slim.

With kind regards

 

 

[Poelcappelle]

On 04/05/2024 at 09:55, FROGSMILE said:

Strangely enough I’d discussed privately some aspects of your query in connection with two threads attempting to identify LF officers in group photographs.

There were actually three patterns of officers service dress bronze collar badge favoured by the LF, although at a glance it might’ve seemed just two.

The first pattern was that with a three section title scroll and introduced in 1902 specifically for the new drab serge service dress (SD).  It followed a general SD policy that badges should be the same size for cap and collar** and should ideally be identical to the gilt or bimetal badges already approved since 1897-98, all of which appeared in the officers Dress Regulations published in 1900.

As with the vast majority, but not all regiments, the LF observed this initially even though the badge was one of a number whose design was overly large and unwieldy for a collar.

As a result the regiment chose a new badge seemingly very early in the war that expediently simply removed the title scroll leaving the grenade, as was, only.  Photos dated 1914 offer the first view of these in use.

By 1915 another badge appeared that was probably inspired partly by the disconnected grenade just described, and partly by the design of the bullion, or gilt metal grenades used on full dress tunics, and undress frocks, respectively, but smaller and distinguished by more traditional flames of tear drop shape##.

Thus, by the end of 1915, one might see all three types within a LF battalion regardless of it’s regular, war-raised or TF status.  There wasn’t usually any rigid attitude, although there might occasionally be a stickler for uniformity in command, it was rare, they had far greater priorities.

As for the TF battalions, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th, they were indeed officially authorised for these same general design of badges, but without the word EGYPT and leaving thus a blank tablet.  According to regulations TF officers were also to wear a small bronze T directly beneath their collar badge.  This wasn’t always observed.

In some cases a TF officer was photographed with a regular pattern of collar badge (with EGYPT), but with the T beneath (as per your image above).  Therefore, with the exigencies of war, with conscription and men and officers posted in as part of continuous drafts to replace casualties, it’s clear that it all became a bit academic and, as you’ve pointed out, in 1917 the differential was abandoned.

Although all the badges described had TF variants without “EGYPT”, there does not appear to have been an alternative version of the standard regimental button bearing the Sphinx within a Laurel wreath (the latter said to commemorate the regiment’s participation in the Battle of Minden, in 1759).  Nor are there buttons without honours for other regiments.  Ergo, standard regimental buttons were worn throughout the regiment.  Usually only officers on the ‘general list’ (encompassing a diverse range of categories) wore the GS button.

** this was so that an officer could purchase two or three pairs and interchange them readily between cap and jacket.

## officers of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and the Royal Munster Fusiliers adopted a very similar style smaller grenade badge for their SD, and largely abandoned the pattern given them in 1902.

References:

1. Infantry Collar Badges by Colin Churchill.

2. Regimental buttons by Howard Ripley.

I have a question about polishing.  The buttons, being in brass, needed to be polished when tarnished, and clearly have a shine to them in the period photographs.  But for the bronze collar badges and cap badges, was polishing avoided so as to maintain the bronze patina? (Apart from the versions worn in the tropics as ntoed, which show that polishing might risk permanently removing the bronze patina.)  This seems to be the case in all the photographs, except for the last of the young officer, whose collar badges have a shine to them.  Unless this is simply from the light, or because they were very newly issued?

[Andrew Upton]

50 minutes ago, Poelcappelle said:

I have a question about polishing.  The buttons, being in brass, needed to be polished when tarnished, and clearly have a shine to them in the period photographs.  But for the bronze collar badges and cap badges, was polishing avoided so as to maintain the bronze patina? (Apart from the versions worn in the tropics as noted, which show that polishing might risk permanently removing the bronze patina.)  This seems to be the case in all the photographs, except for the last of the young officer, whose collar badges have a shine to them.  Unless this is simply from the light, or because they were very newly issued?

Bronzing on originals badging varies, from very dark and almost matt finishes to really quite light and glossy - but otherwise the finish was essentially achieved by deliberately chemically oxidising the metal, so they wouldn't be polished or this finish would have been lost.

[FROGSMILE]

As Andrew has mentioned officers service dress bronze badges were not cleaned on the Western Front.  They were intended to be dull and of dark hue following lessons learned in the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, which I think I mentioned in an early reply to your inquiry.  It had been the case that a number of ‘glittering’ British officers had been successfully picked off by the excellent marksmen among the Boer farmers for whom shooting well was the difference between an abundant kitchen table and being hungry not just for them but also their families.  It was only in tropical climates where khaki drill service dress made from stout cotton twill often featured insignia that had had its finish removed by polishing.  This was a peacetime thing for regular officers to appear smart and not an operational practice.

[Poelcappelle]

Thank you Andrew and thank you Frogsmile.  Very helpful indeed!

(I do wonder then if the traces of Brasso one sees at times on bronze collar badges is from families or later collectors who did not know this, rather than the original owners.)

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Poelcappelle said:

(I do wonder then if the traces of Brasso one sees at times on bronze collar badges is from families or later collectors who did not know this, rather than the original owners.)

That seems entirely likely.

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 15/05/2024 at 05:35, Poelcappelle said:

My interest in the 2/7th BN LF stems from the fact that an ancestor was the CO (LCol W. A. Hobbins).  Like your grandfather, he spent a period of convalescence in England after being wounded.  I have no images of him in uniform and therefore would be thrilled if any photographs could be found of his battalion, but I imagine the chances of this are slim.

I have had a look in the History of the Lancashire Fusiliers 1914 to 1918, but I'm afraid that there are only two mentions of Lt Col Hobbins, both in connection with the engagement in the 5rd Battle of Ypres on 9 October 1917 when he was commanding the 2/7th LF and won his DSO for leading his troops into battle on his own initiative, which, of course, you already knew. it also mentions that the following day he was left behind to ensure that the wounded were brought down.

On 15/05/2024 at 05:35, Poelcappelle said:

I would be especially interested to learn more about his cap badge that you described, which if I'm not mistaken seems to be different from the version he wears in the photograph, which appears to be bronze?

Here is a photograph of the cap badge that I have.

[FROGSMILE]

A lovely badge.  It is the type described in officers’ dress regulations as ‘silver and gilt finish’ and officially intended for the coloured forage cap used for undress headdress, but with the frock coat, blue patrols, or the full dress scarlet tunic when fur caps are not required.  Note how the badge dulls when left without care to preserve its finish.

Edited 24 May by FROGSMILE

[Poelcappelle]

On 24/05/2024 at 05:51, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I have had a look in the History of the Lancashire Fusiliers 1914 to 1918, but I'm afraid that there are only two mentions of Lt Col Hobbins, both in connection with the engagement in the 5rd Battle of Ypres on 9 October 1917 when he was commanding the 2/7th LF and won his DSO for leading his troops into battle on his own initiative, which, of course, you already knew. it also mentions that the following day he was left behind to ensure that the wounded were brought down.

Here is a photograph of the cap badge that I have.

Thank you so much for your time in reading about my ancestor.  I had missed that part about him staying behind to help the wounded.  It's a very touching reference, especially as he also was one of the wounded - almost no officers escaped that battle unscratched.  It crippled him physically, and from what I have heard from my family, he carried the experience with him the rest of his days.

I do appreciate as well the image of your grandfather's cap badge.  Thank you for sending it!  It answers many of my questions.  I did come across some wonderful photographs of him as well, if I'm not mistaken, attached here.  They appear a proud group!  He is wearing the grenade collar badge, which FROGSMILE noted came later than the version with the scroll.  These are also very helpful photographs to me as they show the diamond shoulder formation badge that I have been inquiring about on another thread.

[Poelcappelle]

On 24/05/2024 at 06:42, FROGSMILE said:

A lovely badge.  It is the type described in officers’ dress regulations as ‘silver and gilt finish’ and officially intended for the coloured forage cap used for undress headdress, but with the frock coat, blue patrols, or the full dress scarlet tunic when fur caps are not required.  Note how the badge dulls when left without care to preserve its finish.

Thank you for these explanations.  A quick question: how common would it have been for a Territorial Force officer to have uniforms beyond service dress (i.e. forage cap, full dress tunic, etc.)?  i.e. would it have been rare for a TF officer to own the silver and gilt cap badge such as Capt Hall did?

[Poelcappelle]

On 04/05/2024 at 09:55, FROGSMILE said:

Strangely enough I’d discussed privately some aspects of your query in connection with two threads attempting to identify LF officers in group photographs.

There were actually three patterns of officers service dress bronze collar badge favoured by the LF, although at a glance it might’ve seemed just two.

The first pattern was that with a three section title scroll and introduced in 1902 specifically for the new drab serge service dress (SD).  It followed a general SD policy that badges should be the same size for cap and collar** and should ideally be identical to the gilt or bimetal badges already approved since 1897-98, all of which appeared in the officers Dress Regulations published in 1900.

As with the vast majority, but not all regiments, the LF observed this initially even though the badge was one of a number whose design was overly large and unwieldy for a collar.

As a result the regiment chose a new badge seemingly very early in the war that expediently simply removed the title scroll leaving the grenade, as was, only.  Photos dated 1914 offer the first view of these in use.

By 1915 another badge appeared that was probably inspired partly by the disconnected grenade just described, and partly by the design of the bullion, or gilt metal grenades used on full dress tunics, and undress frocks, respectively, but smaller and distinguished by more traditional flames of tear drop shape##.

Thus, by the end of 1915, one might see all three types within a LF battalion regardless of it’s regular, war-raised or TF status.  There wasn’t usually any rigid attitude, although there might occasionally be a stickler for uniformity in command, it was rare, they had far greater priorities.

As for the TF battalions, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th, they were indeed officially authorised for these same general design of badges, but without the word EGYPT and leaving thus a blank tablet.  According to regulations TF officers were also to wear a small bronze T directly beneath their collar badge.  This wasn’t always observed.

In some cases a TF officer was photographed with a regular pattern of collar badge (with EGYPT), but with the T beneath (as per your image above).  Therefore, with the exigencies of war, with conscription and men and officers posted in as part of continuous drafts to replace casualties, it’s clear that it all became a bit academic and, as you’ve pointed out, in 1917 the differential was abandoned.

Although all the badges described had TF variants without “EGYPT”, there does not appear to have been an alternative version of the standard regimental button bearing the Sphinx within a Laurel wreath (the latter said to commemorate the regiment’s participation in the Battle of Minden, in 1759).  Nor are there buttons without honours for other regiments.  Ergo, standard regimental buttons were worn throughout the regiment.  Usually only officers on the ‘general list’ (encompassing a diverse range of categories) wore the GS button.

** this was so that an officer could purchase two or three pairs and interchange them readily between cap and jacket.

## officers of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and the Royal Munster Fusiliers adopted a very similar style smaller grenade badge for their SD, and largely abandoned the pattern given them in 1902.

References:

1. Infantry Collar Badges by Colin Churchill.

2. Regimental buttons by Howard Ripley.

Forgive the many questions today.  Do we know what chemical was used to "bronze" the officer collar and cap badges?  (I gather they were brass badges with a chemical treatment to make them appear bronzed.)  And if we do know the chemical, is it possible to "re-bronze" badges whose finished has been rubbed off?  (And by that I don't mean blackened as with rifle battalions, etc.)  Thank you.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Poelcappelle said:

Forgive the many questions today.  Do we know what chemical was used to "bronze" the officer collar and cap badges?  (I gather they were brass badges with a chemical treatment to make them appear bronzed.)  And if we do know the chemical, is it possible to "re-bronze" badges whose finished has been rubbed off?  (And by that I don't mean blackened as with rifle battalions, etc.)  Thank you.

I’ve no idea.  Personally I wouldn’t wish to do anything chemically to an original badge, it would be anathema to me.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Poelcappelle said:

Thank you for these explanations.  A quick question: how common would it have been for a Territorial Force officer to have uniforms beyond service dress (i.e. forage cap, full dress tunic, etc.)?  i.e. would it have been rare for a TF officer to own the silver and gilt cap badge such as Capt Hall did?

TF Officers who were commissioned after war was declared had no need for full dress, but most would probably have procured a set of silver and gilt finish insignia at some point.  I cannot give a definitive answer, a lot depended on the battalion itself in the form of its commanding officer’s attitude to such things.

[Poelcappelle]

20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

TF Officers who were commissioned after war was declared had no need for full dress, but most would probably have procured a set of silver and gilt finish insignia at some point.  I cannot give a definitive answer, a lot depended on the battalion itself in the form of its commanding officer’s attitude to such things.

Thank you for the explanation, and point taken about your previous response about not touching an original badge!

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 24/05/2024 at 11:42, FROGSMILE said:

A lovely badge.  It is the type described in officers’ dress regulations as ‘silver and gilt finish’ and officially intended for the coloured forage cap used for undress headdress, but with the frock coat, blue patrols, or the full dress scarlet tunic when fur caps are not required.

Thank you, Frogsmile. So not the badge that my GF would routinely have worn at the front but it is still nice to have it.

On 26/05/2024 at 04:26, Poelcappelle said:

I did come across some wonderful photographs of him as well, if I'm not mistaken, attached here.  They appear a proud group!  He is wearing the grenade collar badge, which FROGSMILE noted came later than the version with the scroll.  These are also very helpful photographs to me as they show the diamond shoulder formation badge that I have been inquiring about on another thread.

Thank you, Poelcapelle. You are correct in thinking that those two photographs also show my GF. They were taken on 19 July 1919 when my GF and the other men in the photograph were representing the 5th LF at the Peace Celebrations in London. My GF carried the King's Colour in the parade. He was very honoured to have been selected to do this, and I think that, as you surmise, the other men would also have been proud to have been chosen. 

I clearly had paid insufficient attention to the details of the photographs until now as I had not previously noticed that my GF was wearing the grenade collar badge. I also have one of those with the other badge and his buttons. I had also not noticed the diamond shaped badges on the shoulders with the number 5 in the centre. Thank you for drawing my attention to these details.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

So not the badge that my GF would routinely have worn at the front but it is still nice to have it.

It’s not entirely clear to me what dress he might have used it with, but albeit without knowing him it seems unlikely to me that he’d have purchased such a badge unless he had a use for it.  Might he have purchased a mess dress uniform, or blue patrols?**  If not then I can only imagine it was worn with service dress as an alternative to the service dress bronze insignia, perhaps after the peace.  It’s certainly a conundrum.

** the only other undress garment, that of ‘frock coat’, is something only ever needed by regulars.

[Poelcappelle]

4 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Thank you, Frogsmile. So not the badge that my GF would routinely have worn at the front but it is still nice to have it.

Thank you, Poelcapelle. You are correct in thinking that those two photographs also show my GF. They were taken on 19 July 1919 when my GF and the other men in the photograph were representing the 5th LF at the Peace Celebrations in London. My GF carried the King's Colour in the parade. He was very honoured to have been selected to do this, and I think that, as you surmise, the other men would also have been proud to have been chosen. 

I clearly had paid insufficient attention to the details of the photographs until now as I had not previously noticed that my GF was wearing the grenade collar badge. I also have one of those with the other badge and his buttons. I had also not noticed the diamond shaped badges on the shoulders with the number 5 in the centre. Thank you for drawing my attention to these details.

Thank you very much for the context to the photographs of your grandfather - so helpful!  Interesting he'd be wearing cuff rank in July 1919, and I wonder whether the diamond patch on his shoulder was more of a square shape due to the later date, though I am by no means knowledgeable on that subject!

What an honour indeed to carry the King's Colour!  And so wonderful to have all these photographs.

Again, grateful to you for sharing your family history!

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 30/05/2024 at 23:49, FROGSMILE said:

It’s not entirely clear to me what dress he might have used it with, but albeit without knowing him it seems unlikely to me that he’d have purchased such a badge unless he had a use for it.  Might he have purchased a mess dress uniform, or blue patrols?**

Sadly he died when I was 12, so I can't answer these questions first hand, nor is there anyone around now to ask. As mentioned earlier in the thread he represented the 5th LF in London for the Peace Celebrations, and included a full account of that in his memoir, but though there was a formal dinner I can't see that there would have been much call for changing into a different uniform, or even much opportunity to do so. He also represented the 2/5th LF at the unveiling of the Givenchy Memorial to the 55th Division on 15 May 1921, but the same applies to that occasion. At that time, in 1921, he served in the Defence Force for a short time following a National Emergency having been declared on 9 April 1921 because of industrial unrest, but I don't suppose that that would have prompted the purchase of a mess dress uniform.

I am sure that he would have attended reunions etc. after the war, but I don't think that he stayed in the TF, so presumably he would not have worn uniform.

Might he have worn the badge as an alternative to the bronze service dress badge even before the peace, perhaps while he was on home service or in the King's Lancashire Military Convalescent Hospital (he was there from September 1918 to the Armistice recovering from a broken ankle, and acted as Adjutant for one of the hotels used for accommodation)? 

 

On 31/05/2024 at 02:36, Poelcappelle said:

Thank you very much for the context to the photographs of your grandfather - so helpful! 

You are welcome. I am indeed lucky to have these photographs of my grandfather, or at least copies of them. The family's original photographs are now in the IWM for safe keeping.