Lancashire Fusiliers officer badges and buttons - questions on different versions

[Poelcappelle]

Grateful if someone could confirm some questions for me about buttons and badges for officers of the Lancashire Fusiliers.

- There are two types of LF collar badge: 1) the grenade as Tolkien wore in 1916, pictured; 2) the grenade and scroll as Sir Gilbert Mackereth wore also in 1916 (maybe 1917), pictured.  Is this something that varied based on battalion?  Or was one introduced later than the other?  Sir Gilbert also wore the simple grenade collar badge as in this other photograph, so I wonder if there was simply a change over time - a move from the grenade to the scroll and grenade?  Or perhaps both options were possible at the same time without uniformity?

- For Territorial Force LF officers, were cap badges and collar badges the versions without the "Egypt" battle honour?  I can't quite tell from the photograph attached of a TF officer.  I know that on 22 September 1917 officers would have been allowed to wear badges with the "Egypt" battle honour, per the attached announcement, but before this point I presume they could not wear badges with honours?

- And again, for Territorial Force LF officers, did they wear general service buttons?  The only Lancashire Fusilier buttons I can see for sale have the "Egypt" battle honour, but I thought that was not allowed before 22 Sep 1917?  And I can't quite tell what buttons the TF officer is wearing in the photograph.

Thank you.

[FROGSMILE]

On 04/05/2024 at 05:00, Poelcappelle said:

Grateful if someone could confirm some questions for me about buttons and badges for officers of the Lancashire Fusiliers.

- There are two types of LF collar badge: 1) the grenade as Tolkien wore in 1916, pictured; 2) the grenade and scroll as Sir Gilbert Mackereth wore also in 1916 (maybe 1917), pictured.  Is this something that varied based on battalion?  Or was one introduced later than the other?  Sir Gilbert also wore the simple grenade collar badge as in this other photograph, so I wonder if there was simply a change over time - a move from the grenade to the scroll and grenade?  Or perhaps both options were possible at the same time without uniformity?

- For Territorial Force LF officers, were cap badges and collar badges the versions without the "Egypt" battle honour?  I can't quite tell from the photograph attached of a TF officer.  I know that on 22 September 1917 officers would have been allowed to wear badges with the "Egypt" battle honour, per the attached announcement, but before this point I presume they could not wear badges with honours?

- And again, for Territorial Force LF officers, did they wear general service buttons?  The only Lancashire Fusilier buttons I can see for sale have the "Egypt" battle honour, but I thought that was not allowed before 22 Sep 1917?  And I can't quite tell what buttons the TF officer is wearing in the photograph.

Thank you.

Strangely enough I’d discussed privately some aspects of your query in connection with two threads attempting to identify LF officers in group photographs.

There were actually three patterns of officers service dress bronze collar badge favoured by the LF, although at a glance it might’ve seemed just two.

The first pattern was that with a three section title scroll and introduced in 1902 specifically for the new drab serge service dress (SD).  It followed a general SD policy that badges should be the same size for cap and collar** and should ideally be identical to the gilt or bimetal badges already approved since 1897-98, all of which appeared in the officers Dress Regulations published in 1900.

As with the vast majority, but not all regiments, the LF observed this initially even though the badge was one of a number whose design was overly large and unwieldy for a collar.

As a result the regiment chose a new badge seemingly very early in the war that expediently simply removed the title scroll leaving the grenade, as was, only.  Photos dated 1914 offer the first view of these in use.

By 1915 another badge appeared that was probably inspired partly by the disconnected grenade just described, and partly by the design of the bullion, or gilt metal grenades used on full dress tunics, and undress frocks, respectively, but smaller and distinguished by more traditional flames of tear drop shape##.

Thus, by the end of 1915, one might see all three types within a LF battalion regardless of it’s regular, war-raised or TF status.  There wasn’t usually any rigid attitude, although there might occasionally be a stickler for uniformity in command, it was rare, they had far greater priorities.

As for the TF battalions, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th, they were indeed officially authorised for these same general design of badges, but without the word EGYPT and leaving thus a blank tablet.  According to regulations TF officers were also to wear a small bronze T directly beneath their collar badge.  This wasn’t always observed.

In some cases a TF officer was photographed with a regular pattern of collar badge (with EGYPT), but with the T beneath (as per your image above).  Therefore, with the exigencies of war, with conscription and men and officers posted in as part of continuous drafts to replace casualties, it’s clear that it all became a bit academic and, as you’ve pointed out, in 1917 the differential was abandoned.

Although all the badges described had TF variants without “EGYPT”, there does not appear to have been an alternative version of the standard regimental button bearing the Sphinx within a Laurel wreath (the latter said to commemorate the regiment’s participation in the Battle of Minden, in 1759).  Nor are there buttons without honours for other regiments.  Ergo, standard regimental buttons were worn throughout the regiment.  Usually only officers on the ‘general list’ (encompassing a diverse range of categories) wore the GS button.

** this was so that an officer could purchase two or three pairs and interchange them readily between cap and jacket.

## officers of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and the Royal Munster Fusiliers adopted a very similar style smaller grenade badge for their SD, and largely abandoned the pattern given them in 1902.

References:

1. Infantry Collar Badges by Colin Churchill.

2. Regimental buttons by Howard Ripley.

Edited 6 May by FROGSMILE

[Poelcappelle]

Thank you enormously!  The breadth and depth of your knowledge is remarkable.  I am truly fortunate to have had a response from you.  So, so helpful!

On the subject of identifying LF officers, I was very interested to hear of your work on this front.  If there exist any photographs of 2nd/7th BN officers I would be keenly interested to see them.  (The Fusilier Museum in Bury does not appear to possess any.)  That is where my main interest lies.

I have two minor follow-on questions (forgive me if they have already been addressed in your response):

- Was there a Territorial Force version of the bronze officer's cap badge without the "EGYPT"?  I have seen a TF cap badge withouth the battle honour on the plinth, but it appears to be the version in two tones for enlisted men.

- For the small "T" below the collar badge, I have seen versions in both a bronze colour and a brighter brass (or perhaps gilt) colour.  I could understand the bronze versions intended for use in the field, but imagine the two types were interchangeable just like the varations of collar badges?

Again, thank you for your time and kindness, especially to include key references and so many useful photographs.  (The officer in the last image looks frighteningly young, like a child!)

[FROGSMILE]

On 06/05/2024 at 03:52, Poelcappelle said:

Thank you enormously!  The breadth and depth of your knowledge is remarkable.  I am truly fortunate to have had a response from you.  So, so helpful!

On the subject of identifying LF officers, I was very interested to hear of your work on this front.  If there exist any photographs of 2nd/7th BN officers I would be keenly interested to see them.  (The Fusilier Museum in Bury does not appear to possess any.)  That is where my main interest lies.

I have two minor follow-on questions (forgive me if they have already been addressed in your response):

- Was there a Territorial Force version of the bronze officer's cap badge without the "EGYPT"?  I have seen a TF cap badge withouth the battle honour on the plinth, but it appears to be the version in two tones for enlisted men.

- For the small "T" below the collar badge, I have seen versions in both a bronze colour and a brighter brass (or perhaps gilt) colour.  I could understand the bronze versions intended for use in the field, but imagine the two types were interchangeable just like the varations of collar badges?

Again, thank you for your time and kindness, especially to include key references and so many useful photographs.  (The officer in the last image looks frighteningly young, like a child!)

I’m glad to help and enclose a photo of the officers of 11th (S) Battalion LF.  If you look (a magnifier is helpful) you will see that the majority have one or other of the small type collar badges (there are just two with the 1902 pattern collar, the commanding officer and third from left as we look rear row).

For a variety of reasons there was a friction between the auxiliary and regular forces that manifested itself in various ways, not least due to the enforced merger of the Volunteer Force with the regulars in the late 1880s, with the former becoming Volunteer Battalions (VB) of the latter.

This merger led to a fuss with badges. In general there was an encouragement to adopt regular badge designs, albeit with added title scrolls, but some VB wanted to maintain aspects of their rifle volunteer lineage, and regulars objected to their hard earned honours being adopted by butchers and bakers playing soldiers at weekends.

Eventually it all settled down, but when further reform took place in 1908, forming the Territorial Force (TF), more attentive direction was given at the outset about the honours that could not be worn by other than regulars.  In the case of the LF it meant that whereas their VB had worn EGYPT on the badge, along with all others bearing the Sphinx on insignia they had to accept a blank scroll to reflect that they were not there.

Turning now to your individual questions:

1.  The LF TF battalions definitely wore silver and gilt (officers - with blade fastening) and bimetal (other ranks - with vertical shank) badges on their prewar headdress.  It seems inconceivable that they cannot have had a sealed pattern equivalent in bronze for service dress, but I cannot find an example, or any visual evidence that one was worn.  I recall that following the Boer War the specification for other ranks badges changed, with the alloy modified to have more zinc, which made the badge grow dull after a week of not being cleaned.  The top part of the badge quickly mellowed to a dull brown and the white metal to grey.  It seems possible to me that the officers wore that same badge on their service dress, but that is just my speculation in the absence of evidence prewar for bronze.

2.  With regards to the T there were two types, one in bronze or brass with two prongs that were inserted through holes and bent over behind to secure, and one with loops through which a cotter pin was inserted.  The former was intended for collars, and the latter for shoulder straps in certain orders of dress. As always with practicalities, these might be interchangeable depending on what was available and the attitude of the commanding officer.  There was also an almost universal policy of polishing the finish off of the bronze badges when they were worn with khaki drill (KD) tropical service dress, which made them look more like an odd shade of gilding metal.

 

Edited 7 May by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And finally there’s one important aspect not yet covered, which is the significance of shoulder titles to the LF, for whom they often took the part of cap insignia too.

This expedient usage had become common on sun helmets of various styles in hot climates such as India, where in fusilier regiments especially they were often worn on a coloured patch on the side of the headdress along with a cut feather plume (‘hackle’).

Perhaps most famous of all though was the widespread practice during the 2nd Anglo/Boer War of utilising as cap insignia a piece of scarlet shoulder strap with the white woven letters of the regiments title on the side.

For the LF this type of insignia became totemic after the traumatic experience they underwent atop Spion Kop, where along with other Lancashire battalions (e.g. King’s Liverpool) they were picked off by Boer marksmen from an elevated position as they stoically attempted to find cover under a hail of fire in a shallow trench and hold the position.

Subsequently the LF favoured the type of cap insignia that they wore on that day and that was especially so for the LF battalions that fought at Gallipoli and Salonika a little over a decade later.

Whereas other ranks wore the woven letters, the officers had bimetal shoulder titles on a scarlet rectangle in vertical orientation.  These badges incorporated the Sphinx too, and as with collar badges there were two types, with and without the EGYPT honour.  Ergo the officers there had little use for bronze badges.

In review order the officers adopted a primrose yellow cut feather hackle and other ranks a yellow brush plume (horsehair) in each case inserted behind the patch on the side of the helmet.

 

Edited 6 May by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Hi @Poelcappelle and a belated welcome to the forum

14 hours ago, Poelcappelle said:

If there exist any photographs of 2nd/7th BN officers I would be keenly interested to see them.  (The Fusilier Museum in Bury does not appear to possess any.)  That is where my main interest lies.

The Lancashire Fusiliers Territorial Force unit that we've recently had a thread on was the 2/5th Battalion, who landed in France in May 1915. To help us there was an unnamed officer group picture taken as the Battalion was getting ready to move to it's port of embarkation - indeed two officers have been inserted "photoshop style" who are believed to have already left with an advance party. Going out so shortly after being formed and that early in the war, the Battalion Officer establishment was drawn mainly from minor public schools and grammar schools, so there was often a lot of information to draw on and images available to try and help put a name to a face on the officer picture. One of the officers also kept a diary which gave some telling details about his fellows.

While the original 2/7th Battalion would have drawn from a similar pool for it's officers, it didn't go out to France until February 1917. It's likely that many of those original officers would have been posted elsewhere, including the 1/7th. What you may find is a mix of recovered wounded and men commissioned from the ranks by the time it went overseas, along with individuals attached from the Regiment officer reserve and other Regiments. 

The British Army Monthly Lists are freely available via the National Library of Scotland. The Officer establishment of the 7th Battalion in the April 1917 edition can be found here https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104052656

It should only be treated as a guide as there were frequently delays in updating the information. The number shown before a name shows whether that man was in the 1st Line, 2nd Line or 3rd Line Battalion. A number in brackets like (2) means an Officer is serving with the 2nd Battalion, not the 2/7th.

If you have specific officers you are interested in that you may want to start a new thread - there may still be answers to come on the button and badges query you have raised here.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, PRC said:

there may still be answers to come on the button and badges query you have raised here.

Have I inadvertently missed something Peter?

Edited 6 May by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

good evening,

I have find on the Loos Battle field this button to the Lancashire Fusilier :

according to my research on this battalion, it would correspond to the 9th Lancashire Fusilier - 11th Division.

but to be confirmed.

regards

michel

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

good evening,

I have find on the Loos Battle field this button to the Lancashire Fusilier :

according to my research on this battalion, it would correspond to the 9th Lancashire Fusilier - 11th Division.

but to be confirmed.

regards

michel

Thank you Michel.  I agree that it is an officers’ button of the Lancashire Fusiliers, and the honour EGYPT is discernible.

Edited 6 May by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Have I inadvertently missed something Peter?

I doubt it @FROGSMILE - well up to your usual standard of comprehensiveness.

It just seems to me that because of that this thread will provide a useful ongoing resource and may be added to by others at a future date.

If it was to spiral off into a discussion of the officers of the 2/7th Battalion then potentially it could do a disservice to both topics, stopping further comment on the issue of badges and buttons, while others might be put off commenting on the 2/7th Battalion on a thread that has already had 9 posts and is a sub-forum for Uniforms, cap badges and insignia.

Just a suggestion to keep the two elements separate. Will be happy to try and respond either way.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, PRC said:

I doubt it @FROGSMILE - well up to your usual standard of comprehensiveness.

It just seems to me that because of that this thread will provide a useful ongoing resource and may be added to by others at a future date.

If it was to spiral off into a discussion of the officers of the 2/7th Battalion then potentially it could do a disservice to both topics, stopping further comment on the issue of badges and buttons, while others might be put off commenting on the 2/7th Battalion on a thread that has already had 9 posts and is a sub-forum for Uniforms, cap badges and insignia.

Just a suggestion to keep the two elements separate. Will be happy to try and respond either way.

Cheers,
Peter

Roger. 👍

Edited 6 May by FROGSMILE

[Poelcappelle]

16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m glad to help and enclose a photo of the officers of 11th (S) Battalion LF.  If you look (a magnifier is helpful) you will see that the majority have one or other of the small type collar badges (there are just two with the 1902 pattern collar, the commanding officer and third from left as we look rear row).

For a variety of reasons there was a friction between the auxiliary and regular forces that manifested itself in various ways, not least due to the enforced merger of the Volunteer Force with the regulars in the late 1880s, with the former becoming Volunteer Battalions (VB) of the latter.

This merger led to a fuss with badges. In general there was an encouragement to adopt regular badge designs, but with added title scrolls, but some VB wanted to maintain aspects of their rifle volunteer lineage, and regulars objected to their hard earned honours being adopted by butchers and bakers playing soldiers at weekends.

Eventually it all settled down, but when further reform took place in 1908, forming the Territorial Force (TF), more attentive direction was given at the outset about the honours that could not be worn by other than regulars.  In the case of the LF it meant that whereas their VB had worn EGYPT on the badge, along with all others bearing the Sphinx on insignia they had to accept a blank scroll to reflect that they were not there.

Turning now to your individual questions:

1.  The LF TF battalions definitely wore silver and gilt (officers - with blade fastening) and bimetal (other ranks - with vertical shank) badges on their prewar headdress.  It seems inconceivable that they cannot have had a sealed pattern equivalent in bronze for service dress, but I cannot find an example, or any visual evidence that one was worn.  I recall that following the Boer War the specification for other ranks badges changed with the alloy modified to have more zinc which made the badge grow dull after a week of not being cleaned.  The top part of the badge quickly mellowed to a dull brownvv by and the white metal to grey.  It seems possible to me that the officers wore that same badge on their service dress but that is just my speculation in the absence of evidence prewar for bronze.

2.  With regards to the T there were two types, one in bronze with two prongs that were inserted through holes and bent over behind to secure, and one with loops through which a cotter pin was inserted.  The former was intended for collars, and the latter for shoulder straps in certain orders of dress. As always with practicalities these might be interchangeable depending on what was available and the attitude of the commanding officer.  There was also an almost universal policy of polishing the finish off of the bronze badges when they were worn with khaki drill (KD) tropical service dress, which made them look more like a odd shade of gilding metal.

 

Thank you again so very, very much!  That 12th BN photograph is very helpful as a guide.  (Interesting that there is variety as well in the peak caps, from rigid, presumably older, versions to the floppier type without the wire frame.)  I also find it wonderful to see photographic evidence for the use of different varieties of collar badge at the same time by the same unit.  It is starting to make sense!  With regard to your comment about polishing off the bronze for khakhi drill tropical service dress, do you think that is the explanation for the LF TF collar badges in the image you included in your earlier post, copied again below?  The tone of the laurel wreath and sphinx seems unusually brighter than the original bronze.  Was this done so that the colour would blend better with KD?

[Poelcappelle]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

I doubt it @FROGSMILE - well up to your usual standard of comprehensiveness.

It just seems to me that because of that this thread will provide a useful ongoing resource and may be added to by others at a future date.

If it was to spiral off into a discussion of the officers of the 2/7th Battalion then potentially it could do a disservice to both topics, stopping further comment on the issue of badges and buttons, while others might be put off commenting on the 2/7th Battalion on a thread that has already had 9 posts and is a sub-forum for Uniforms, cap badges and insignia.

Just a suggestion to keep the two elements separate. Will be happy to try and respond either way.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter for your helpful information about the 2/5th.  The background of its officers is similar to what I know of the 2/7th.  The British Army Monthly list that you linked is wonderful.  The specific officer I am interested in is in fact listed there (as is his later 2iC).  Such a treat to see a new archival record!  But I respect your recommendation to cover that topic in a separate thread.  My only concern is that there might not be sufficient information out there to merit a new discussion.  Do you think there would be general interest in a specific 2/7th thread?  It would of course be very helpful to me.

[Poelcappelle]

8 hours ago, battle of loos said:

good evening,

I have find on the Loos Battle field this button to the Lancashire Fusilier :

according to my research on this battalion, it would correspond to the 9th Lancashire Fusilier - 11th Division.

but to be confirmed.

regards

michel

What a remarkable archaeological find Michel!  One might not know for sure if the uniforms and their accoutrements one comes across for sale were used in battle, but in this case there is such a clear and direct connection.  Remarkable!

[Poelcappelle]

16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

And finally there’s one important aspect not yet covered, which is the significance of shoulder titles to the LF, for whom they often took the part of cap insignia too.

This expedient usage had become common on sun helmets of various styles in hot climates such as India, where in fusilier regiments especially they were often worn on a coloured patch on the side of the headdress along with a cut feather plume (‘hackle’).

Perhaps most famous of all though was the widespread practice during the 2nd Anglo/Boer War of utilising as cap insignia a piece of scarlet shoulder strap with the white woven letters of the regiments title on the side.

For the LF this type of insignia became totemic after the traumatic experience they underwent atop Spion Kop, where along with other Lancashire battalions (e.g. King’s Liverpool) they were picked off by Boer marksmen from an elevated position as they stoically attempted to find cover under a hail of fire in a shallow trench and hold the position.

Subsequently the LF favoured the type of cap insignia that they wore on that day and that was especially so for the LF battalions that fought at Gallipoli and Salonika a little over a decade later.

Whereas other ranks wore the woven letters, the officers had bimetal shoulder titles on a scarlet rectangle in vertical orientation.  These badges incorporated the Sphinx too, and as with collar badges there were two types, with and without the EGYPT honour.  Ergo the officers there had little use for bronze badges.

In review order the officers adopted a primrose yellow cut feather hackle and other ranks a yellow brush plume (horsehair) in each case inserted behind the patch on the side of the helmet.

 

Forgive my many posts today, it is just such a wonderful learning experience for me.  Do I understand correctly - were the metal LF shoulder titles of enlisted men repurposed to be used on the tropical helmets of officers?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Poelcappelle said:

Was this done so that the colour would blend better with KD?

Yes, that is correct.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Poelcappelle said:

Do I understand correctly - were the metal LF shoulder titles of enlisted men repurposed to be used on the tropical helmets of officers?

Yes, it was not unusual to do that for tropical dress in many regiments.  When a feather hackle was added for review order it looked very smart.

Edited 7 May by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

4 hours ago, Poelcappelle said:

My only concern is that there might not be sufficient information out there to merit a new discussion.  Do you think there would be general interest in a specific 2/7th thread? 

Give it a try - I can't guarantee it will take off like the 2/5th threads did but it will put it out there and it never ceases to amaze how it can draw in descendants of someone mentioned, sometimes over a decade later.

I take it you already have the Battalion War Diary?

If not, currently free to download from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one even that can be set up as part of placing your first order.  Just click on "sign in" on any page of the online catalogue and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested.

Oddly looks like the 2/7th have a "War Diary" covering September 1915 to February 1916 which can be found in the online catalogue here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355538

There is then one from February 1917 to June 1918, (March 1918 is missing). https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355539

For the missing period might be worth checking out the 197th Infantry Brigade War Diary. February to March 1918 is here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14056336

Cheers,
Peter

[battle of loos]

14 hours ago, Poelcappelle said:

What a remarkable archaeological find Michel!  One might not know for sure if the uniforms and their accoutrements one comes across for sale were used in battle, but in this case there is such a clear and direct connection.  Remarkable!

good evening,

if I have not been mistaken, this button would belong to a man of the 9th Lancashire Fusilier of the 11th Division.

period of passage to Loos (Hill 70) October/November 1917.

If ever by the way, I'm looking for information on this in order to confirm this.

Thank you in advance for your help.

michel

[Poelcappelle]

6 hours ago, battle of loos said:

good evening,

if I have not been mistaken, this button would belong to a man of the 9th Lancashire Fusilier of the 11th Division.

period of passage to Loos (Hill 70) October/November 1917.

If ever by the way, I'm looking for information on this in order to confirm this.

Thank you in advance for your help.

michel

Good day Michel,

My knowledge is very limited - I would have to defer to others on this forum.  I would agree with FROGSMILE that it is a Lancashire Fusiliers officer's button, with King's crown.  Looks to be the large 26mm button.  I only know that the 9th battalion was a service BN, but was unaware of its presence at Loos.  I will keep in mind to look out for references to LF activity in Loos during my research.

[Poelcappelle]

16 hours ago, PRC said:

Give it a try - I can't guarantee it will take off like the 2/5th threads did but it will put it out there and it never ceases to amaze how it can draw in descendants of someone mentioned, sometimes over a decade later.

I take it you already have the Battalion War Diary?

If not, currently free to download from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one even that can be set up as part of placing your first order.  Just click on "sign in" on any page of the online catalogue and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested.

Oddly looks like the 2/7th have a "War Diary" covering September 1915 to February 1916 which can be found in the online catalogue here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355538

There is then one from February 1917 to June 1918, (March 1918 is missing). https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355539

For the missing period might be worth checking out the 197th Infantry Brigade War Diary. February to March 1918 is here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14056336

Cheers,
Peter

Good heavens, more extremely useful references that I will have to read.  Thank you!!  Would these diaries have been written by the CO?  If so, the one for Feb 1917-June 1918 may have entries from the officer of interest to me.

Perhaps material for a separate thread, but a quick comment: I suspect, though would need to verify in the sources you quoted, that March 1918 is missing from the war diary because the 2nd/7th battalion was tragically wiped out during the German spring offensive during a period of fog:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_Battalion,_Lancashire_Fusiliers:

"On the opening day of the German spring offensive (21 March 1918), the 2/8th Lancashire Fusiliers in 197 Bde's Forward Zone were quickly overwhelmed by German attackers appearing out of an early morning fog. The Battle Zone was anchored on a heavily fortified quarry outside the village of Templeux-le-Guérard, held by two and a half companies of the 2/7th Lancashire Fusiliers and two companies of the divisional pioneer battalion (1/5th Border Regiment); however, this strongpoint was quickly surrounded and bypassed by the attackers, who began a furious attack on the rest of the brigade in Templeux-le-Guérard. At 3.00 pm the Germans brought up some heavy Minenwerfers, which destroyed the positions in the quarry, and at the same time they entered the quarry tunnels. Of 450 men in the quarry garrison only about 60 were left on their feet when they surrendered two hours later. That night the remnant of the brigade in Templeux-le-Guérard were overrun and most were captured."

 

[Poelcappelle]

20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, it was not unusual to do that for tropical dress in many regiments.  When a feather hackle was added for review order it looked very smart.

Thank you very much again for your insights!!

[battle of loos]

10 hours ago, Poelcappelle said:

Good day Michel,

My knowledge is very limited - I would have to defer to others on this forum.  I would agree with FROGSMILE that it is a Lancashire Fusiliers officer's button, with King's crown.  Looks to be the large 26mm button.  I only know that the 9th battalion was a service BN, but was unaware of its presence at Loos.  I will keep in mind to look out for references to LF activity in Loos during my research.

good morning,

yes this button are the large.

thank's for your help.

regards

michel

[Poelcappelle]

On 08/05/2024 at 08:50, battle of loos said:

good morning,

yes this button are the large.

thank's for your help.

regards

michel

Bonjour Michel,

Par curiosité, où avez-vous trouvé le bouton ?  Dans un champ, au bord d'une rivière ?  Était-il à la surface du sol ou enterré ?

Merci

[battle of loos]

good evening,

on the field.

but now, it's building.