Edmond “Ned” Ryan

[Joan Heaphy]

He was a farmer's son. He had an older brother who died in 1906 so he would have been helping out on the farm and would have stood to inherit it. Maybe it was a sense of adventure that made him join up with his friend. When he came home from the war, he married into a neighbouring farm, marrying my granny, He must have not been able to settle as he signed up for a land settlement programme in Manitoba, did not pursue that and ended up staying with his sister in New York and that is how I found a record of him some years back. Its his war record I was hoping to find information on, but as stated above, many of the records were destroyed. 

[FROGSMILE]

I too think that he’s Army Service Corps (ASC) and that is backed up by his waist-belt, which is the leather, 1903 pattern, commonly worn by that corps.  A farmer with experience of horses and carts/wagons would be a very typically attractive recruit for the ASC (T - Transport branch).

Edited 24 April by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

43 minutes ago, Joan Heaphy said:

He was a farmer's son.

I had rather suspected as much and an ASC role with horses would have likely suited him, but ???

But not all men went to a role which used their pre-war occupation, though some men did post-war use skills picked up during the war.

For example mechanical transport [MT] / motor vehicle drivers could go on to being a chauffeur or a taxi driver or a lorry diriver - It was just a speculative thought around the possibilities.

What did he do in New York?  BTW, New York = city or state?  Where in NY? - NY is not all built up 

M

Edited 24 April by Matlock1418

[Joan Heaphy]

He is buried in Mt.Pleasant, New York. I recall seeing his occupation on some documentation as "Gasoline Station Worker". He lived in New York City using his sister's address but he never showed up in any census that I could find. The ASC connection is interesting and a start. Many thanks to you all.

[Tawhiri]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

What did he do in New York?  BTW, New York = city or state?  Where in NY? - NY is not all built up 

His death certificate states he was living at 3021 Heath Avenue in New York City, and his occupation was gasoline salesman, so possibly pointing towards an involvement with things mechanical post-war. He was also described as being single, wtih no mention of a wife.

Unfortunately he is proving to be quite elusive in both the post-war Canadian and US records, which is somewhat frustrating.

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, Joan Heaphy said:

He is buried in Mt.Pleasant, New York. I recall seeing his occupation on some documentation as "Gasoline Station Worker". He lived in New York City using his sister's address but he never showed up in any census that I could find. The ASC connection is interesting and a start. Many thanks to you all.

The ASC were responsible for two specific aspects supporting an army in the field - Supply and Transport.  Accordingly the corps was divided into those two functions.  Those in Transport were further subdivided into horse [drawn] transport (HT - carts, wagons and limbers) and mechanical transport (MT - steam tractors and the then relatively new internal combustion engines).  Over the course of the war it’s likely that he would have been involved in aspects of both, including gasoline.

Edited 24 April by FROGSMILE

[Joan Heaphy]

I see from an article in the book "The Tipperary Ward Dead" that his friend and neighbour who died in Action- Daniel O'Brien No 11146 - enlisted in Cahir and his grave reference is V.C.3 Epehy Wood Farm Cemetery.  That is not to say that my grandfather fought in the same area if they had different roles. Daniel would also have been a farmer's son. Edmond's wife was Hannah Condon and he referred to her as Hannie in documentation for entry to US from Canada. The New York address is correct from my recollection. I keep everything the old way in a file and I will have to root it out. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 24/04/2024 at 14:41, Joan Heaphy said:

I see from an article in the book "The Tipperary Ward Dead" that his friend and neighbour who died in Action- Daniel O'Brien No 11146 - enlisted in Cahir and his grave reference is V.C.3 Epehy Wood Farm Cemetery.  That is not to say that my grandfather fought in the same area if they had different roles. Daniel would also have been a farmer's son. Edmond's wife was Hannah Condon and he referred to her as Hannie in documentation for entry to US from Canada. The New York address is correct from my recollection. I keep everything the old way in a file and I will have to root it out. 

As the war developed, after the first two years it became increasingly common for men to be weeded out from the ASC if they were young fit and healthy, and compulsorily transferred into the infantry, which suffered a majority of casualties.  They were commonly replaced by conscripted older men, and recovered wounded from the infantry, who although capable of useful work, were no longer fit enough for front-line combatant duty.

 In theory it’s possible that something similar happened to the two men.  Only units served with overseas appeared on their medal rolls and indexed cards, and any units served with at home are unknown unless the individuals are among those few with service records that survived the WW2 bombing.

Edited 26 April by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 23/04/2024 at 19:44, Tawhiri said:

• Edmond Ryan serving with the Army Service Corps as M/371285.

On 24/04/2024 at 09:11, Matlock1418 said:

The only MIC [BWM & VM only - so landed after 31 Dec. 1915] I can spot for an Edmond RYAN, Army Service Corps is M/371285

Good for him, but not helpful for us - I can't see a pension record at WFA/Fold3 [so no address]

Near number search:-

M/371280 Edward Allen has surviving service records indexed on FindMyPast has born Chatham, Kent c1898 and commencing in 1915. Familysearch has additional indexing details that they are burnt series records and that he was resident Chadderton, Lancashire. Additional Service numbers are T/381764 and M/372942. MiC under the last service number  - Victory Medal (VM) and British War Medal (BWM) only, so no service overseas until after the 31st December 1915.

M/371281 Benjamin Evans - VM and BWM only
M/371282 – No MiC match. Nothing on FindMyPast.
M/371283 Henry Montgomery – VM and BWM only
M/371284 – No MiC match. Nothing on FindMyPast.
M/371285 Edmond Ryan – VM and BWM only
M/371286 William James Baxter – VM and BWM only
M/371287 - No MiC match. Nothing on FindMyPast.
M/371288 Robert Lackford \ Lachford. MM as Lackford serving in France with 3rd Army Troop, Machine Gun Section. VM and BWM only as Lachford.
M/371289 John Harrington has surviving serving records indexed on FindMyPast as born Durham c1875. Familysearch adds they are burnt series records and that he was resident Ardleigh, Essex.

Perhaps a forum pal with subscription access to Ancestry, Fold 3 or FindMyPast can check out the surviving service records for Allen and Harrington to see if a period can be established for when M/371285 Edmond Ryan might have enlisted.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 26 April by PRC
Typos

[Joan Heaphy]

All those names are possibly of English residents apart from Edmond Ryan so maybe that is a different Edmond Ryan. I will not give up yet. Many thanks.

[Matlock1418]

23 minutes ago, Joan Heaphy said:

All those names are possibly of English residents apart from Edmond Ryan so maybe that is a different Edmond Ryan. I will not give up yet.

Your photo of 'Ned' is probably the best clue we have about his service - provided it is correctly identified - man and unit.

Please remember that a corps like the ASC was not particularly regional or filled with local lads, especially not so later in the war [unlike like some of the infantry regiments etc. might have originally been - but even those got get very mixed residence recruits/draftees as the war progressed]

I get the distinct impression you will not give up!  Best wishes.

M

Edited 24 April by Matlock1418

[PRC]

56 minutes ago, Joan Heaphy said:

All those names are possibly of English residents apart from Edmond Ryan so maybe that is a different Edmond Ryan. I will not give up yet. Many thanks.

At the moments you are in the realms of probabilities. M/371286 is the only Edmond Ryan that can so far be identified as having served in the Great War with the Army Service Corps - the unit that your picture of Edmond shows him to have served with. So I would say that Edmond needs to be positively eliminated first before going on to consider whether your Edmond served with the ASC in the UK only, or was weeded out and sent to serve overseas with another branch of the Army. It wasn't just the infantry - he may have had skills that made him suitable for the Royal Engineers, while following it coming into existence in October 1915 the Machine Gun Corps was regularly trawling through home service units looking for potential candidates. Some of those would go on to serve in the Tank Corps.

If you look at the barebones I've set out of M/371280 Edward Allen it's possibly date wise not too dis-similar to your Edmond Ryan - there is a likely baptism in Chatham in August 1897, a civil birth registration in the relevant quarter of 1897 and matches in the subsequent 1901 and 1911 Censuses, the latter showing a move to Lancashire. Indexing shows his army service record starting in 1915 - the same year Daniel O'Brien is believed to have enlisted. The Army Service Corps was filled up with individuals from all over the UK and even men with adjoining service numbers may have initially reported to different depots before having a service number assigned from the central Corps records office.

It's not ideal but picking up on your belief that Edmond and his neighbour Daniel O'Brien enlisted together, there is now potentially ways to identify when Daniel and the ASC Edmond enlisted. It won't be an absolute proof either way, but the closer those two dates are the more it is worthwhile trying to find out more about the ASC man.

Do you have access to any of the genealogy websites? Both Ancestry and FindMyPast offer free trials, although you have to be pro-active with cancelling to make sure they don't take your subscription if you don't want to continue. And if you live in the UK then many local library services subscribe to either Ancestry or FindMyPast - sometimes both. You do have to be a library member and on-site, but certainly my own library is at last moving away from having to use one of their PC's and letting you log in via the in-house wifi.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

To be clear, whilst it’s true that some other corps also combed out men from the service support units, I quoted the infantry particularly for a few reasons.  First Joan had mentioned an infantry connection with the Royal Irish Regiment via a friend who family lore suggested had enlisted together with the subject.

Second the Royal Engineers, then and now, only took the best educated men, those who had matriculated at a college, or who had by other means shown an aptitude for numeracy and literacy, except for those expediently accepted as ‘RE pioneers’.  The subject, who was from a working farm family, seemed an extremely unlikely sapper.

Third, it was statistically (in terms of the sheer numbers) primarily the infantry that was hoovering up suitably fit young men from the support services, including after 1916 the infantry branch, especially, of the Machine Gun Corps.  This was because it was the infantry whose casualty rates were causing significant problems for formation combat power - and therefore potency - when compared pro rata with the artillery and cavalry.

With all that in mind it seemed a far more likely course to have been taken by the subject of this thread, and so I made no mention of the alternatives so as to avoid muddying too much the water in which we’re swimming with this speculation.

Edited 24 April by FROGSMILE

[Jervis]

There is a March 1917 record of Edmond Ryan of Doolis obtaining a dog license. So I am guessing he left for the front sometime after this date. 

[Joan Heaphy]

That is interesting as that would make him 19 when he joined up. His friend and neighbour,Daniel O'Brien whom he joined up with died in action in Jan 1918. The attached has his signature which might be of some use trying to locate any more details. Its definitely his signature as his daughter, my late mother, wrote in the very same style which I find fascinating and she was around 3 when he left for Manitoba. Strange how he signed "Edmund".

[Joan Heaphy]

16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

To be clear, whilst it’s true that some other corps also combed out men from the service support units, I quoted the infantry particularly for a few reasons.  First Joan had mentioned an infantry connection with the Royal Irish Regiment via a friend who family lore suggested had enlisted together with the subject.

Second the Royal Engineers, then and now, only took the best educated men, those who had matriculated at a college, or who had by other means shown an aptitude for numeracy and literacy, except for those expediently accepted as ‘RE pioneers’.  The subject, who was from a working farm family, seemed an extremely unlikely sapper.

Third, it was statistically (in terms of the sheer numbers) primarily the infantry that was hoovering up suitably fit young men from the support services, including after 1916 the infantry branch, especially, of the Machine Gun Corps.  This was because it was the infantry whose casualty rates were causing significant problems for formation combat power - and therefore potency - when compared pro rata with the artillery and cavalry.

With all that in mind it seemed a far more likely course to have been taken by the subject of this thread, and so I made no mention of the alternatives so as to avoid muddying too much the water in which we’re swimming with this speculation.

Edmond would not have received an education beyond primary school and would have been expected to help out on the farm  as his older brother has passed away in 1906. Suffice to say that they barely eked out a living on the farm so it may  have been necessary for him to join to fight for the British which in some circles may not have been received well in South Tipperary at the time.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Joan Heaphy said:

Edmond would not have received an education beyond primary school and would have been expected to help out on the farm  as his older brother has passed away in 1906. Suffice to say that they barely eked out a living on the farm so it may  have been necessary for him to join to fight for the British which in some circles may not have been received well in South Tipperary at the time.

I understand completely what you mean, but would respectfully point out that at the time, just like a Welshman, Scotsman and Englishman, an Irishman was a subject of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.  I understand the political situation of the period concerned and I do not mention this to score points, but merely to point out how the statute and protocol was during WW1.  In some circles on the Island of Ireland, regardless of religious beliefs, or geographical location, he was enlisting in the Army of the state that he owed allegiance to.  Many Irishmen of all backgrounds stayed faithful to that, fought bravely, and admirably, and in numerous cases received war pensions from the British State for several decades afterwards, regardless of the creation of the Irish Free State.  It was largely the years intervening between the two world wars that led to nuanced language and a fear of being perceived disloyal, or serving the ‘wrong side’, that led to fearfulness and the deliberate suppression of inconvenient - and potentially dangerous - facts of family history. 

Edited 25 April by FROGSMILE

[Joan Heaphy]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I understand completely what you mean, but would respectfully point out that at the time, just like a Welshman, Scotsman and Englishman, an Irishman was a subject of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.  I understand the political situation of the period concerned and I do not mention this to score points, but merely to point out how the statute and protocol was during WW1.  In some circles on the Island of Ireland, regardless of religious beliefs, or geographical location, he was enlisting in the Army of the state that he owed allegiance to.  Many Irishmen of all backgrounds stayed faithful to that, fought bravely, and admirably, and in numerous cases received war pensions from the British State for several decades afterwards, regardless of the creation of the Irish Free State.  It was largely the years intervening between the two world wars that led to nuanced language and a fear of being perceived disloyal, or serving the ‘wrong side’, that led to fearfulness and the deliberate suppression of inconvenient facts of family history. 

Thanks for your response. I think he must have been brave or lucky to survive uninjured and I hope that he had no mental scars. I would love to have know him but alas it was not to be. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Joan Heaphy said:

I think he must have been brave or lucky

Probably both 👍

[Jervis]

7 hours ago, Joan Heaphy said:

Edmond would not have received an education beyond primary school and would have been expected to help out on the farm  as his older brother has passed away in 1906. Suffice to say that they barely eked out a living on the farm so it may  have been necessary for him to join to fight for the British which in some circles may not have been received well in South Tipperary at the time.

According to @museumtom work - 1,539 Co. Tipperary men lost their life in the war. Taking a death rates at 10% to 15% of total serving men- you can probably assume there was well over 10,000 Tipperary men who served in the war. 

Even though Tipperary was one of the most active IRA county’s - and strange as it may seem to present day eyes - British Great War veterans were by far in the majority in Tipperary and would have been prevalent in all walks of life. 

Having said that - farmers & sons were the least likely to volunteer. The war created a boom in the rural economy which meant there was plenty of agricultural work in Ireland and men were in demand to work the land. So given Edmunds background was due to/ had inherited the farm he is a bit of an outlier in signing up.  

Worthwhile looking at Toms Website on Tipp in Great War

Jervis

[museumtom]

You could get lost in there lads and lassies but it only covers those that died in the war, updated to include all soldier who served in the war from the 26 counties that died before 31/08/1921, munition workers, civilians working for the army etc....

Edited 25 April by museumtom