Edmond “Ned” Ryan

[Joan Heaphy]

Thank you. I am also looking for information on my grandfather about his time fighting in WW1. His name was Edmond "Ned" Ryan from Doolis, Ballyporeen, Co. Tipperary. He joined with his neighbour, O'Brien also from Ballyporeen which friend died in action in France. My Grandfather survived. How do I find out more information about his time in WW1. He died in New York in the 1930s so there is little that the family know of him.

Joan

[museumtom]

Daniel O'Brien on the Cahir Memorial. Your best bet is the Nationalist Newspaper for Pte Ryan.

[Michelle Young]

@Joan Heaphy I have split this into a new thread. Is Edmond possibly this man? Image courtesy Ancestry 

[Jervis]

Hi Joan,
Is this the man on the 1901 census at Doolis Edmond Ryan? 
if so it makes his date of birth 1898. 
 

There are service records for the man Michelle identified - born c1876 and from Bansha in Tipperary. 

This is possible his friend. Screenshot from Fold3

[Joan Heaphy]

Hi, Possibly might be him. I was told that he was awarded medals but did everybody who survived get a medal. Thanks for this information. Appreciated. 

Joan

[Joan Heaphy]

Yes, that is definitely him. Cooladerry townland and Doolis townland are side by side in the parish of Ballyporeen. My grandfather was born in 1897 a twin. It must have been hard for him to lose his friend in action. Would that mean that my grandfather fought in Flanders along with him.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Joan Heaphy said:

His name was Edmond "Ned" Ryan from Doolis, Ballyporeen, Co. Tipperary. He joined with his neighbour, O'Brien also from Ballyporeen which friend died in action in France.

Did they join up together?

The soldier identified by @museumtom is shown on Soldiers Died in the Great War, a UK government publication from the 1920's as born Ballyporeen, County Tipperary, resident Cooladerry, County Tipperary and enlisted Cahir, County Tipperary. He was killed in action on the 16th January 1918 serving with the 2nd Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment. Daniel O'Brien's regimental service number was 11146.

According to Paul Nixons' Army Service number website that number wouldn't have been issued until early 1915, (11042 was issued in January 1915 by the Regular Army Battalions, while the new wartime only Battalions has all started from number 1). https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/08/royal-irish-regiment-1st-2nd-battalions.html

Edmond Ryan appears to have surviving service records - FindMyPast has indexed them as "Edmund" Ryan, born Great Britain c1876, but date them to 1915, so not a Regular. They are in what is called the burnt series. During WW2 German bombs gutted the warehouse where these records were stored, and what remains was salvaged in a burnt, smoke and water damaged state. Ancestry also have them as service records. Unfortunately I don't subscribe so can't check them out further.

Edit - from what has been posted while I've been typing it would appear it cannot be the Edmond Ryan you are interested in.

3 minutes ago, Joan Heaphy said:

I was told that he was awarded medals but did everybody who survived get a medal.

Only those who served overseas. Those who served at home in the Great War did not qualify for any service medals.

Will dig around some more.

Cheers,
Peter

[Joan Heaphy]

Thanks so much. Joan

Yes, they joined up together as this was confirmed to me years ago by a relative of the O'Briens. Joan

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Joan Heaphy said:

I am also looking for information on my grandfather about his time fighting in WW1. His name was Edmond "Ned" Ryan from Doolis, Ballyporeen, Co. Tipperary.

Welcome to GWF

1 hour ago, Michelle Young said:

From WFA/Fold3 ... Edmond Ryan, 386898, Labour Corps, previously Royal Irish Regiment claimed a disability pension after discharge 20.2.19

His address was Currana, Bansha, Tipperary - my knowledge Irish geography is sketchy at best and I have no knowledge of your GF's later residential situation

He claimed for a GSW Left Buttock [Gunshot wound or a similar penetrating injury from a projectile]

He is recorded as being born 1872

Does this help?

M

Edited 23 April by Matlock1418
the usual - a typo

[Joan Heaphy]

Thanks for replying, but not him. My grandfather's address was Doolis, Ballyporeen, Co. Tipperary and born 1897. 

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, Joan Heaphy said:

born 1897

Sorry - I missed that date in your earlier post - oh well, this other one is there for someone else to find when searching.

Wishing you the best of luck.

M

[Joan Heaphy]

Thanks. Joan

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, Joan Heaphy said:

Edmond "Ned" Ryan from Doolis, Ballyporeen, Co. Tipperary.

Were there any Absent Voters Lists in Ireland?

If so, he might be named with his service details.

???

M

[Tawhiri]

The only other Edmond Ryan serving with the Royal Irish Regiment as service number 10745 was clearly a pre-war regular, given both the date of his first entry into a theatre of war, and his presumed date of death which are 13 August 1914 and 19 October 1914 respectively. Looking for possible variations on his first name, there are also three Edward Ryan's who served with the Royal Irish Regiment, but again two of these can be eliminated because they first entered a theatre of war in October and December 1914 respectively, which doesn't square with someone who was born in 1897 and presumably enlisted after the outbreak of war in August 1914. The third Edward Ryan served with the Royal Irish Regiment as 3/7792, enlisting on 10 April 1915 before being discharged on 30 April 1917, and only seeing service in a theatre of war after the end of 1915 as he was only entitled to the British War and Victory Medals.

Expanding the search to include regiments other than the Royal Irish Regiment only produces a further three viable candidates:

• Edmond Ryan serving with the Irish Guards as 9502, enlisted on 9 August 1915, discharged on 29 October 1919,
• Edmond Ryan serving with the Connaught Rangers as 7131, and
• Edmond Ryan serving with the Army Service Corps as M/371285.

There are, of course, several more possibilities if his forename was simply recorded as E.

Edited 23 April by Tawhiri

[Jervis]

11 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

• Edmond Ryan serving with the Irish Guards as 9502, enlisted on 9 August 1915, discharged on 29 October 1919,
• Edmond Ryan serving with the Connaught Rangers as 7131, and
• Edmond Ryan serving with the Army Service Corps as M/371285.

I have been searching without much success. 
9502 - was born in 1888 ten years too old & with Kilkenny address  

7131 - was born & lived in Limerick 

no info on the ASC man. 

[Tawhiri]

By the time of the 1911 Ireland census he seems to be going by the name of Eddie, so possibly another variation to search on.

http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Ballyporeen/Doolis/814316/

If it helps, his actual date of birth was 16 August 1897.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1897/02114/1804356.pdf

Edited to add that this appears to be his death in New York City on 10 December 1935, his death registration lists the correct parents, even if his birth year is two years off.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WGX-FCF

Edited 23 April by Tawhiri

[PRC]

If Edmond Ryan joined the Royal Irish Regiment at the same time as Daniel O'Brien you might expect him to turn up with a nearby service number, even if there might be a slight variation in the name, but a quick search for five service numbers either side of 11146 at best shows two unknowns who didn't go overseas with the Royal Irish Regiment, and if they went overseas may have served with another unit altogether.

11141 John Barry – landed Gallipoli 16/10/1915.
11142 No Medal Index Card, (MiC) match. Nothing obvious on FindMyPast.
11143 Patrick Kennedy also Royal Dublin Fusiliers 43023 and Royal Irish Regiment 12326
3/11144 William Keating  - has ICRC card. Military Medal Gazetted 19.2.17 serving with the 6th Battalion. – landed Gallipoli 16/10/1915.
11145 P McGrath subsequently Royal Irish Regiment 32332
11146 Daniel O’Brien
11147 William Mullins subsequently Royal Engineer, service numbers 234502 & WR1009. Landed Salonika 31/12/1915.
11148 No MiC match. Nothing obvious on FindMyPast.
11149. MiCs for William Bowe and Herbert Breen – the latter subsequently 32023 Royal Iniskilling Fusiliers. (Suspect one of them is actually 11148).
11150 Michael Conroy died a Prisoner of War in Germany on the 11th July 1918. His unit is shown as the 2nd Battalion. Soldiers Died in the Great War shows him born and enlisted Roscrea, County Tipperary.
11151 No MiC match. Nothing obvious on FindMyPast.

But no surviving service records and no individuals honourably discharged before the end of the conflict - those other rank individuals discharged from September 1916 onwards, the vast majority as a result of wounds, injuries or illness, also received the Silver War Badge. Those discharged previously and officers could apply for them. What is interesting about the associated Silver War Badge Roll is that it gives the date of enlistment.

Why I think that it is important is because of Edmonds' date of birth as identified by @Tawhiri of the 16th August 1897. The Army shouldn't have been taking him before he was 18, (August 1915) and they shouldn't have been sending him to a Theatre of War until he was 19, (August 1916). Of course he could have lied about his age - but that raises the possibility that he also lied about his name.

Clever people on the forum can take the amount of war gratuity* paid out to the next of kin to work out a four week period when Daniel O'Brien and Michael Conroy would have enlisted. That at least will tell us if Edmond Ryans' 18th birthday might have been a issue. Alternatively a wider search may turn up individuals with surviving service records or a silver war badge roll entry.

*available on Ancesty or Fold 3 as part of his entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects.

Cheers,
Peter

[Joan Heaphy]

All the help I am getting is much appreciated. This is the only photo I have of him in a uniform but its poor quality.

[Joan Heaphy]

13 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Were there any Absent Voters Lists in Ireland?

If so, he might be named with his service details.

???

M

I think they only exist for 2 counties.

[Michelle Young]

Cap badge shape is suggestive of the ASC. 

[Joan Heaphy]

We will surely find some War record of him eventually, Joan

[Michelle Young]

You are aware I hope, that the vast majority of service records were destroyed during a bombing raid during WW2? 

[Matlock1418]

49 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Cap badge shape is suggestive of the ASC. 

It certainly is suggestive of a star.

The only MIC [BWM & VM only - so landed after 31 Dec. 1915] I can spot for an Edmond RYAN, Army Service Corps is M/371285

Good for him, but not helpful for us - I can't see a pension record at WFA/Fold3 [so no address]

???

M

Edited 24 April by Matlock1418
bwm & vm note

[Joan Heaphy]

If, per say, a group from South Tipperary all joined up together, they may have had to travel to Cahir town to register and it would progress from there, Am I correct in that assumption?

[Matlock1418]

50 minutes ago, Joan Heaphy said:

This is the only photo I have of him in a uniform but its poor quality.

As Michelle has suggested the cap badge does look suggestive of the ASC [which had a star-shaped badge]

Unfortunately we can't see his lower leg and boots clearly - I was hoping to possibly also see reversed puttees and foot guards which would have been suggestive of working with horses [potentially a Transport driver, T, or perhaps less likely as Remounts, R, pre-fixed number] though my recent offering of M/371285 would rather suggest Mechanical Transport [I'm afraid I cannot follow up on that as I don't have wider access]

= What was Ned RYAN's occupation, pre-war and post-war?

M

Edited 24 April by Matlock1418
typo