Collingwood Battalion - Antwerp

[NR72]

Good evening ,

Doing some research into this battalion , i have a few questions that i was hoping someone could point me in the right direction for

 

• Was there muster rolls of the battalion before they left ?
• I have learnt that 22 made it back from Antwerp , anyone have a list, or know of a list ?
• PoWs  Germany - is there a list of the men who were captured (Not interned in Holland)

Thanks all 

[horatio2]

I am not aware of a Collingwood Muster Roll prior to embarking for the BEF., This (in theory) would include men who, for whatever reason, did not so proceed and were left in UK. The closest to such a Roll, must, therefore be the list of officers and ratings who qualified for the 1914 Star (ADM 171/139). This is transcribed in Fevyer and Wilson's "The 1914 Star to the Royal Navy and Royal Marines" which lists 913 Collingwood names.

Those who are not marked in the 1914 Star Roll as Interned (I) or POW (P) should answer your second question but it would be worth checking against the individuals' ADM 339 RND Record Cards..

The same book  (pp.209 - 212) reprints The Times of 21 December 1914 which listed about 320 Collingwood POWs at Doberitz.

Edited 20 April by horatio2

[NR72]

26 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

I am not aware of a Collingwood Muster Roll prior to embarking for the BEF., This (in theory) would include men who, for whatever reason, did not so proceed and were left in UK. The closest to such a Roll, must, therefore be the list of officers and ratings who qualified for the 1914 Star (ADM 171/139). This is transcribed in Fevyer and Wilson's "The 1914 Star to the Royal Navy and Royal Marines" which lists 913 Collingwood names.

Those who are not marked in the 1914 Star Roll as Interned (I) or POW (P) should answer your second question but it would be worth checking against the individuals' ADM 339 RND Record Cards..

The same book  (pp.209 - 212) reprints The Times of 21 December 1914 which listed about 320 Collingwood POWs at Doberitz.

Thankyou  Horatio , much appreciated , do you know anything of the survivors ?

[Keith_history_buff]

You can purchase some information on the POWs:
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2018/09/royal-naval-division-ratings-pows-1914.html

I have no financial connection with the provider of the information. I can report that I am a very satisfied user of his high quality data.

 

 

 

[horatio2]

5 minutes ago, NR72 said:

do you know anything of the survivors ?

Do you mean those not interned or POW? If so, a few comments:-

I am aware that Lt GEARY in his "The Collingwood Battalion" says of the 'Old Collingwood':  "...only 22 of the700 original Collingwood reached England." I would treat this statement with considerable scepticism. We have already seen that 913 Collingwoods are listed for the 1914 Star so who are Geary's 700?

Secondly, the 1914Star Roll lists far more than 22 men who were not marked as Interned or POW - I stopped counting at 65. This includes numerous men landed at Dunkirk who did not proceed to Antwerp (a Dunkirk Rear Party?). Knowledge of their post-Antwerp service is in their ADM 339 records.

[NR72]

Thank you , yes i meant those who actually made it home .  Are you aware of any first hand accounts of these Collingwoods who did make it back to England ?

15 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

You can purchase some information on the POWs:
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2018/09/royal-naval-division-ratings-pows-1914.html

I have no financial connection with the provider of the information. I can report that I am a very satisfied user of his high quality data.

 

 

 

Thank you

[Keith_history_buff]

Do you have access to any of the genealogy data providers, and if so, which ones?

[NR72]

Just now, Keith_history_buff said:

Do you have access to any of the genealogy data providers, and if so, which ones?

I dont have any access to genealogy sites , only tend to use national archives really , i will subscribe if there is anything worth getting

[Keith_history_buff]

Link to a thread about the Admiralty 1914 Star roll

 

[horatio2]

7 minutes ago, NR72 said:

Are you aware of any first hand accounts of these Collingwoods who did make it back to England ?

Nothing immediately to hand but I will keep an eye open for such personal narratives.

[NR72]

7 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Link to a thread about the Admiralty 1914 Star roll

 

yes thank you i have it 

[Keith_history_buff]

Here's a search of FMP, as a nested URL, for Collingwood men on the roll. I anticipate duplicates, given there is more than one roll containing these men's details, as part of the Jack Clegg memorial collection.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed forces %26 conflict&eventyear=1914&eventyear_offset=0&keywords=collingwood naval&datasetname=britain%2c campaign%2c gallantry %26 long service medals %26 awards&sourcecountry=great britain&sid=999

[NR72]

I have counted 511 Collingwood internees in Holland , 264 PoWs  and had a quick count up on medal roll and around 128 made it "home" 

Need to dig into all the "made it home" boys 

Thanks for your assistance 

[seaJane]

If I recall correctly, Collingwood was mostly wiped out at Gallipoli so they were not home for long...

[horatio2]

12 minutes ago, seaJane said:

If I recall correctly, Collingwood was mostly wiped out at Gallipoli so they were not home for long...

An entirely new Collingwood Battalion was formed at Crystal Palace from December 1914. They embarked for the MEF in early May 1915.

[seaJane]

Thank you for the correction, h2.

[NR72]

21 hours ago, seaJane said:

If I recall correctly, Collingwood was mostly wiped out at Gallipoli so they were not home for long...

A popular misconception, they did go through the wringer during 3rd Krithia, but they were not wiped out. Their officers suffered horrendous casualties. They and Benbow (who had no combat time except Antwerp)  were the easy choice to disband to swell the numbers in the other battalions. Nelson Bn suffered the most at Gallipoli 

[seaJane]

Thank you too.

[horatio2]

On 20/04/2024 at 20:29, NR72 said:

Need to dig into all the "made it home" boys

@NR72 I will be most interested to see what your in-depth, detailed research into these men turns up.

My 'wet finger' assessment revealed that, although some men found themselves in the 'New Collingwood' at Crystal Palace, relatively few of these went on to Gallipoli. Most of the 'Old Collingwood' men who made it back to UK after Antwerp appear to have been retained at Crystal Palace for the short or long term. A considerable number (the majority??) of pre-war RNVR ratings and RN stokers and reservists were discharged from the RND and transferred to Sea Service.

[NR72]

8 hours ago, horatio2 said:

@NR72 I will be most interested to see what your in-depth, detailed research into these men turns up.

My 'wet finger' assessment revealed that, although some men found themselves in the 'New Collingwood' at Crystal Palace, relatively few of these went on to Gallipoli. Most of the 'Old Collingwood' men who made it back to UK after Antwerp appear to have been retained at Crystal Palace for the short or long term. A considerable number (the majority??) of pre-war RNVR ratings and RN stokers and reservists were discharged from the RND and transferred to Sea Service.

I will let you know, i also want to find out what new entrant training was provided at Crystal palace  before they were sent to Blandford for their infantry training. Also where the Collingwoods were sent after the  disbandment of Walmer camp (apparently 3rd week of October)

[horatio2]

Recruit Training at Crystal Palace followed a five-week syllabus covering: Development of the Service spirit; Instructions in Depot duties, cleanliness, care of feet, smartness, discipline, order and regulations; Physical training; Squad drill, extended order drill and bayonet fighting; Musketry instruction; Elementary night training.

The seven-week Blandford course which followed was conducted in the reserve battalions and consisted of guard duties, fitting equipment, platoon training and recruit's musketry in weeks 1 to 3, followed by Company Training in weeks 4 to 6. The final week (week 7) was used for classification and field firing practices.  For full details   -   https://www.naval-military-press.com/product/training-royal-naval-division-1915/

I think Walmer Camp was still in use until well into November, albeit on a much-reduced scale (e.g. the newly-formed RNDE). By late November the surviving Naval battalions (led by Nelson) were moving into Blandford.

Hawke Battalion was in much the same reduced state as Collingwood after Antwerp and Jerrold notes in his Hawke Battalion history that the ratings "were a fluctuating quantity, since numbers of them left for Bettysanger, Walmer  and, later, Blandford, as reinforcements for the older battalions, while a few landsmen went to sea."  

I think your research will find that many 'home run' Collingwoods were being drafted away from the battalion to Crystal Palace and on to Sea Service in the later weeks of October 1914, commencing soon after return to UK.

.

[NR72]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

Recruit Training at Crystal Palace followed a five-week syllabus covering: Development of the Service spirit; Instructions in Depot duties, cleanliness, care of feet, smartness, discipline, order and regulations; Physical training; Squad drill, extended order drill and bayonet fighting; Musketry instruction; Elementary night training.

The seven-week Blandford course which followed was conducted in the reserve battalions and consisted of guard duties, fitting equipment, platoon training and recruit's musketry in weeks 1 to 3, followed by Company Training in weeks 4 to 6. The final week (week 7) was used for classification and field firing practices.  For full details   -   https://www.naval-military-press.com/product/training-royal-naval-division-1915/

I think Walmer Camp was still in use until well into November, albeit on a much-reduced scale (e.g. the newly-formed RNDE). By late November the surviving Naval battalions (led by Nelson) were moving into Blandford.

Hawke Battalion was in much the same reduced state as Collingwood after Antwerp and Jerrold notes in his Hawke Battalion history that the ratings "were a fluctuating quantity, since numbers of them left for Bettysanger, Walmer  and, later, Blandford, as reinforcements for the older battalions, while a few landsmen went to sea."  

I think your research will find that many 'home run' Collingwoods were being drafted away from the battalion to Crystal Palace and on to Sea Service in the later weeks of October 1914, commencing soon after return to UK.

.

Thanks, I am lucky to have an original  Blandford training regime booklet (Cdr Victor Campbells copy). I have seen it stated that the lads were all sent on leave  after antwerp. Then to wherever (they were spread from Tavistock, Portland, crystal palce and as far north as Duns in Berwickshire , would like to know exactly where the collingwoods ended up . They didnt get to Blandford until Feb 4th 

[KizmeRD]

As far as I’m aware the returnees were all given 7 days leave after getting back to the UK, and afterwards told to report to Crystal Palace. Several of the ratings were recommended for commissioning and so went off to officer training, or were transferred to sea service. I presume the few remaining would have been readily employed in the training battalion(s) at Crystal Palace.  I’d have to check through my Len Seller’s collection and see what he had to say. What’s really needed is a list of names, to permit a more detailed analysis.

MB

 

 

[horatio2]

2 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

As far as I’m aware the returnees were all given 7 days leave after getting back to the UK, and afterwards told to report to Crystal Palace.

UK leave on return (from 12 October) is certainly possible. The problem with such leave is that I have yet to find a narrative that mentions it (still looking). That is important because the RND Record Cards rarely record home leave (the exception being leave granted from the BEF). Moreover, numerous ratings were immediately (i.e. from mid-October) drafted out of the RND and straight to naval bases (Portsmouth and  Chatham mainly) for Sea Service. They may then  have proceeded on leave but their records do not show this.

2 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

What’s really needed is a list of names, to permit a more detailed analysis.

We know the names from the 1914 Star Medal Roll and @NR72  is kindly researching their movements as part of his Collingwood project. That leaves the few Benbow and Hawke returnees (volunteers, one pace forward).

Interestingly, the Benbow MO (Surgeon Williamson) who did a 'home run' with his stretcher bearers, called on the First Lord (WSC) on 13 October for a debriefing. He records "We then asked for a week's leave but he said we must first go down to Betteshanger and report to the Commander of the 2nd Brigade."

[KizmeRD]

2 hours ago, horatio2 said:

UK leave on return (from 12 October) is certainly possible. The problem with such leave is that I have yet to find a narrative that mentions it (still looking). That is important because the RND Record Cards rarely record home leave (the exception being leave granted from the BEF).

It’s not conclusive, but the ‘seven days leave’ reference comes from Stankey Geary’s history of ‘The Collingwood Battalion’ (albeit what he writes about is largely more to do with the new Collingwoods) - see last paragraph below…

MB