Clenners Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April Where were the 1st Battt Royal Irish Fusiliers based between 1911 an 1914. My great grandfather Thomás McEvoy is recorded ón the census in Hampshire in 1911 but a family story places him in India at the outbreak of WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 18 April Admin Share Posted 18 April Welcome to the GWF The 2nd Battalion were in India (Becke via Long Long Trail) https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/princess-victorias-royal-irish-fusiliers/ Typically the active service Battalions (as opposed tot he Depot) rotated every few years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clenners Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April Thanks for that. The mystery is that when he is killed on the first day of the Battle of the Somme he is in the 1st Batt Royal Irish Rifles and is using his mother’s maiden name, Thomas McDonald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April (edited) His service number with the Royal Irish Rifles was 9685. According to Paul Nixon's army service numbers website, service number 9559 joined the Royal Irish Rifles on 16 January 1911, while service number 9910 joined on 15th January 1912. This suggests that he enlisted with the Royal Irish Rifles sometime between these two dates, unless a similar numbering sequence was reused during WW1. The curiosity of course is that on 2 April 1911 he was apparently serving with the Royal Irish Fusiliers. I wonder if the change in surname was because he went AWOL from the Royal Irish Fusiliers, and then had second thoughts and decided to rejoin, but had to do so using an alias. Not the first time that something like this has happened. The 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Rifles was serving in Aden in the Middle East on the outbreak of war in 1914, so not India, but certainly in the right geographical area. I would also note that the 1911 England and Wales census gives his place of military service as St Lucia, although the record is stated to originate in Hampshire. There was a St Lucia Barracks in Omagh, so I'm wondering if there is a connection there. Edited 18 April by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clenners Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April That is brilliant information - thanks a million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clenners Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April I have these two photos - I don't know if they help identify a regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April Tagging @FROGSMILE as he may be able to tell us more about the uniform that Thomas McEvoy is wearing in the first photo, and in particular whether it is the uniform of the Royal Irish Fusiliers or the Royal Irish Rifles that he is wearing. I'm thinking that if it was the Royal Irish Fusiliers there should be flaming grenades on the collar, and I don't see any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clenners Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April Thanks again - this is great help. His sister was married in June 1911 and I think his switch of regiments in 1911 is connected to that event. There was always a story that he had come home to solve a family dispute about the wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April His own marriage in Oct 1912: just gives his profession as soldier, without giving a regiment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April (edited) 1 hour ago, Tawhiri said: Tagging @FROGSMILE as he may be able to tell us more about the uniform that Thomas McEvoy is wearing in the first photo, and in particular whether it is the uniform of the Royal Irish Fusiliers or the Royal Irish Rifles that he is wearing. I'm thinking that if it was the Royal Irish Fusiliers there should be flaming grenades on the collar, and I don't see any. Both photos appear to show Royal Irish Fusiliers. The full dress collar badge was unusual in having one-time ‘Princess Victoria’s’ coronet closest to the collar join and alongside it a grenade bearing the Napoleonic Eagle of a French Regiment of Infantry, which the regiment’s forebears had captured. On the photo of a soldier in service dress it’s just about possible to make out the regiment’s shoulder title in the typical 3-tiers. Edited 18 April by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Gallacher Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April (edited) I believe that is a Royal Irish Fusilier's cap badge on the 2nd photo (Cap on the table). Eoin Edited 18 April by Eoin Gallacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clenners Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April That’s fantastic- thanks a million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April (edited) The mystery deepens. According to the CWGC website, Thomas McEvoy, who served as Thomas McDonald with the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Rifles as service number 9685, was the son of Michael and Margaret McEvoy, and the husband of Elizabeth McEvoy. All of this is consistent with the information on his October 1912 marriage registration. His medal index card has no mention that he was serving under an alias, and shows that he was entitled to a full trio, including the 1914 Star with what looks like a clasp. Although there is no qualifying date for the 1914 Star mentioned on the card, the 1914 Star with a clasp indicates entry into a theatre of war and seeing action before 23 November 1914. In fact, according to the Long Long Trail the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Rifles landed in France on 6 November 1914. All of his WW1 service was with the Royal Irish Rifles, and his service number suggests enlistment with that regiment sometime between January 1911 and January 1912, unless this sequence of service numbers was reused again during the war, yet this seems unlikely given that he was in action before the end of November 1914. We also have the question of why he was serving under an alias. On the other hand we have two photographs thought to be of him, including one in service dress, that show him as a soldier in the Royal Irish Fusiliers. This is also apparently corroborated by the 1911 England and Wales census which shows him serving with the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Fusiliers. Is there any possibility that he had one or more brothers who also served, and the person in the photos has been misidentified? Edited 18 April by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clenners Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April Thomas only had one brother who did not serve in the war and one sister. His son, my granda, was born in August 1913 and his daughter was born on the 10th Feb 1916. My granda had an early memory of a man in uniform in the house when he must have returned to Belfast in 1915. These are the family photos of him passed on to me so I am pretty sure that can only be him. It has always been a mystery to me about why he used his mother’s maiden name and the belief was he had returned home due to a family matter which looks like it was the marriage of his sister in 1911. Could those photos be from 1911 or before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April Unfortunately the birth registrations of his children just say the same thing as his marriage registration when it comes to his occupation, that he was a soldier, which is not that helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clenners Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April My great uncle, on my granny’s side, also used his mother’s maiden name!!! He was Cornelius McParland but when he was captured in August 1914 he was listed as Cornelius Anderson PTE 8406 Royal Irish Fusiliers. He spent the rest of the war as a POW but sadly his brother William James McParland was killed in 1917 at the Battle of Mesines. The two brothers had married two sisters. One question- is it likely Cornelius was a soldier before the outbreak of WW1 if he was involved in August 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clenners Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clenners Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April This is the brother in law of Thomas McEvoy. He was called Billy Mooney and had married Thomas' sister Elizabeth in June 1911. I don't know what regiment he served in during the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April (edited) 1 hour ago, Clenners said: This is the brother in law of Thomas McEvoy. He was called Billy Mooney and had married Thomas' sister Elizabeth in June 1911. I don't know what regiment he served in during the war. They are all wearing hospital blue - a special uniform issued only to those in hospital undergoing recovery. There are a few men with cap badges. None are Royal Irish Fusiliers. Perhaps you could clarify which one is your subject? Edited 18 April by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April 3 hours ago, Clenners said: is it likely Cornelius was a soldier before the outbreak of WW1 if he was involved in August 1914. Yes it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April 3 hours ago, Clenners said: Could those photos be from 1911 or before? Yes, the tunic collar style of his full dress tunic is of the type replaced in 1912-13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clenners Posted 19 April Author Share Posted 19 April Thanks again for all your help. I can't believe it myself but I did not record at the time when I got the photos from his daughter (about 20 years ago) which one in the photo was William (Billy) Mooney. I know he was born in Belfast on the 20th June 1889. In 1911 he was working as a tailor. Thomas' father Michael was also a tailor which is possibly a connection. A story in the family said William and Thomas enlisted together but I have no evidence of this. William, thankfully, survived the war and lived in Balkan Street, Belfast with my great auntie Elizabeth. They had six children.. There are a few William Mooneys so I have been stuck discovering which one refers to this William. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 April Share Posted 19 April (edited) On 19/04/2024 at 16:27, Clenners said: Thanks again for all your help. I can't believe it myself but I did not record at the time when I got the photos from his daughter (about 20 years ago) which one in the photo was William (Billy) Mooney. I know he was born in Belfast on the 20th June 1889. In 1911 he was working as a tailor. Thomas' father Michael was also a tailor which is possibly a connection. A story in the family said William and Thomas enlisted together but I have no evidence of this. William, thankfully, survived the war and lived in Balkan Street, Belfast with my great auntie Elizabeth. They had six children.. There are a few William Mooneys so I have been stuck discovering which one refers to this William. After 1881 Belfast became most closely associated with the Royal Irish Rifles (later Royal Ulster Rifles) despite that one of its two regular battalions had previously been the City of Dublin Regiment, and the other the County Down Regiment. Their depot was established at Victoria barracks in Belfast, and from that point onward the regiment took on a particular flavour. Conversely the Royal Irish Fusiliers was assigned County Armagh, with its regimental depot in Armagh itself. These regional allegiances gradually became embedded, especially between 1900 and 1914 due to the political manoeuvrings going on between Redmondites and Carson’s Unionist supporters. Ergo it is possible that these factors influenced your forebears when they enlisted. Edited Thursday at 14:53 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clenners Posted Thursday at 14:48 Author Share Posted Thursday at 14:48 This has helped to solve some of the mystery! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted Thursday at 15:02 Share Posted Thursday at 15:02 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Clenners said: This has helped to solve some of the mystery! Very interesting. I have been up and down Balkan Street on foot a few times…. He would have had a hard time undergoing 18-months Hard Labour in 1914-15, and had he not struck an officer would probably have had his sentence deferred, or modified on review by higher formation, but it was considered a cardinal offence that had to be punished severely in order to maintain discipline. Military detention centres were set up in France and it seems likely he served his sentence in one of them. He was one of so very many killed on the first day of the Battle of the Somme (57,470 dead and wounded). The worst single day in British Army history. Edited Thursday at 15:06 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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