RN Uniform & Service record query

[Keith_history_buff]

Although slightly out of period, last month I was trying to find whether the militia training time period was strictly defined. I could not find anything, there seemed to be a lot of leeway. Based on the surviving Militia service records that I have seen, training of about 6 weeks seems to have been recorded on the surviving service records of militiamen. I think in this case, he completed his training (22 October 1907 to 7 December 1907), and rather than enlisting in the Army, he thought the Royal Navy was a better option. 

(The longer periods of several months training for the Special Reserve seem to have had a detrimental effect on take-up, being of appeal to the unemployed and those performing contract work, and of less appeal to others where a break of several months was not an option.)

Interesting to see his service
Militiaman, pre-war RN service (until SNLR), aboard trawlers in WW1 with the RNR, with the RN in WW2

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Although slightly out of period, last month I was trying to find whether the militia training time period was strictly defined. I could not find anything, there seemed to be a lot of leeway. Based on the surviving Militia service records that I have seen, training of about 6 weeks seems to have been recorded on the surviving service records of militiamen. I think in this case, he completed his training (22 October 1907 to 7 December 1907), and rather than enlisting in the Army, he thought the Royal Navy was a better option. 

(The longer periods of several months training for the Special Reserve seem to have had a detrimental effect on take-up, being of appeal to the unemployed and those performing contract work, and of less appeal to others where a break of several months was not an option.)

Interesting to see his service
Militiaman, pre-war RN service (until SNLR), aboard trawlers in WW1 with the RNR, with the RN in WW2

I had for some considerable time been trying to find something specific too and then found some precise information in the manual of Infantry Training.  In this case it’s the 4-company organisation iteration, but apparently it was the same in the 8-company organisation, which I think as a publication dates back to the Militia too.  In Appendix II, Syllabus, paragraphs 1 and 2, it states 6-months for regulars and 4-months for special reserve.

When the militia was stood down one stipulation for its replacement was that the change apparently had to be cost neutral to the annual Defence Estimates.  I can’t recall where I read this, but I remember it resonated with me because there were several occasions whilst I was a staff officer in a directorate headquarters, where a fundamental change was being staffed, with the instruction that the new arrangement was to be cost neutral.

At that juncture I realised that it was something of a HM Treasury dogmatic mantra that was usually the basic start point for planning.  It seems to me, therefore, that the militia had, at least in its final form post 2nd Boer War, also trained for 4-months.  Finding the original iteration of Infantry Training, and its Appendix II, or equivalent, will perhaps confirm matters for sure.

NB.  However, note the get-out-of-jail-card-free caveat - “It is not intended that it [the syllabus] should be followed rigidly”.  

Comment: I think that you’re probably right that the original period for militia training was much shorter, and recall discussing it here in the forum before.  I remember that forum member Muerrisch quoted from some regulations.

Edited 11 April by FROGSMILE

[Keith_history_buff]

William Barker enlisted in the 3rd (Militia) Battalion of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 3507. Upon enlistment, he undertook 49 days Drill on Enlistment, from 5 October 1907 to 22 November 1907.

 

Image courtesy FindMyPast

[Keith_history_buff]

The Bowman & Connelly publication from 2012 is not cheap, but it makes for an interesting read regarding the painful transition from the Militia to the Special Reserve.

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

The Bowman & Connelly publication from 2012 is not cheap, but it makes for an interesting read regarding the painful transition from the Militia to the Special Reserve.

Thanks Keith, it was very inconsistent previously wasn’t it.  49-days is barely scratching the surface of military knowledge.  The dynamic of public funding for these activities never changes and I anticipate the same thing will be at the head of any changes to auxiliary forces as a medium term effect of the Ukrainian situation.

Edited 11 April by FROGSMILE

[Nannysavior]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Excellent, well done, that certainly looks like him alright.  Basically then he presumably ran away from barracks and enlisted in the Royal Navy with the thought that he would not be easily found there.

An important point is that he enlisted with the Militia (3rd Battalion) rather than the Regular Army (1st and 2nd Battalion).  The Militia recruits were intended to be auxiliary soldiers and usually completed 4-months training and then went home to civilian life, but were then on call for government decreed emergencies, and in return received a cash payment (bounty) each year. This latter aspect was by far the main motivation for joining, especially for young men reliant on seasonal work.

Regular soldiers did 6-months training and then joined their units as full-time professional soldiers.  Both types of soldier trained together at the same depot and it was a routine practice to try and get any of the more promising militia lads to transfer to the regulars at the 4-month point.  There was very little difference in uniform between them, although he was photographed wearing a cap being phased out and I wondered if that’s because he was not a regular.

In theory then he might not have run away, but instead completed his 4-months basic training and then rather than going home joined the Royal Navy, I don’t think it was illegal to do that if joining the RN as a regular, but forum member @horatio2 will be best placed to comment.  From what I can gather though, he seems only to have completed 8-weeks of Army training, which makes me wonder if there was an option for ‘free discharge’** at the halfway point.  Something similar has existed for a long time now, but I’m unsure when that was introduced.

NB.  The following year, in 1908, the Militia was abolished and replaced by a new force of auxiliaries titled the Special Reserve, whose role was rather different, although the recruitment and training process was similar.

** Termed “discharge as of right”.

 

I'm pleased I checked back & was able to read the edited post - I still don't have his full record as waiting on the email. Seems like there is so much more to learn..... amazing he lived to 73, this is my only other photo - there's not a single civilian photo in the whole family.

[Nannysavior]

4 hours ago, horatio2 said:

An RN recruit would normally be required to declare previous service when signing his Engagement Form for RN Continuous Service (the equivalent of an army attestation).

In this case his engagement should have survived and may now be found in Engagement Ledgers in the archive of the Fleet Air Arm Museum (National Museum of the Royal Navy). These engagements are not available online but it should be possible to order and purchase a copy under his RN Official Number 312531 and full names.

Interestingly, on 1 January 1908 the RN adopted a new system of Official Numbers, with stokers given a prefix 'K'. Stoker TOMLINSON was one of the last eight to be numbered under the six-digit system which had come into effect in 1894. Engagements before 1905 have not survived.

I'll do this, for sure! Thankyou - if it's Yeovilton I've been many years ago when our children were small, mid 80s. Think it was still operational at the time.

[Nannysavior]

4 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Although slightly out of period, last month I was trying to find whether the militia training time period was strictly defined. I could not find anything, there seemed to be a lot of leeway. Based on the surviving Militia service records that I have seen, training of about 6 weeks seems to have been recorded on the surviving service records of militiamen. I think in this case, he completed his training (22 October 1907 to 7 December 1907), and rather than enlisting in the Army, he thought the Royal Navy was a better option. 

(The longer periods of several months training for the Special Reserve seem to have had a detrimental effect on take-up, being of appeal to the unemployed and those performing contract work, and of less appeal to others where a break of several months was not an option.)

Interesting to see his service
Militiaman, pre-war RN service (until SNLR), aboard trawlers in WW1 with the RNR, with the RN in WW2

I'm still waiting for his full record by email & only have a few screenshots but what has struck me is how hard a regime it must have been to a 5'2" 7st9lb youth from an impoverished background. I'm thankful to have found the answers to so many questions & to be able to pass it on.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Nannysavior said:

I'm pleased I checked back & was able to read the edited post - I still don't have his full record as waiting on the email. Seems like there is so much more to learn..... amazing he lived to 73, this is my only other photo - there's not a single civilian photo in the whole family.

I can see now that he’s definitely the same person as in the Army (militia) uniform, the matching facial features are clear.  One thing that surprises me is that such a little fellow became a stoker.  It was gruelling, unrelentingly hard physical work, and his upper body and arms would have been solid muscle. 

Edited 12 April by FROGSMILE