RN Uniform & Service record query

[Nannysavior]

I  hope it's ok to post here - this photo of my grandfather, taken in Malta, has always been in the family. I have his WW1 & WW2 RN records but wondered if this uniform relates to his earlier service? He lied about his age & later altered to 1890. The notes at the bottom of the shared page seem to tie in with his dates - he served his country well during both conflicts.

[RNCVR]

 

@Nannysavior

Well first off, the subject of this photograph is likely a Marine or possibly Army, he is not a sailor. John Charles Tomlinson (ADM 188 above) is a Stoker rating.  @FROGSMILE will know for sure.

& his service record is terrible to say the least. Two 3 day stints in cells very early in his career, then a Desertion on 28 Dec 1908, from which he was subsequently recovered 28 Jan '09 & subsequently was sentenced to 28 days in Detention with HL (hard labour).  Then another stint of 8 days & 3 days in cells whilst serving on HMS Exmouth. Then Discharged SNLR, 28 Apl 1910. Services No Long Required - "being a constant source of trouble".

From the central entry (Record transferred to card) on his ADM 188 is appears as if he was permitted to rejoin under  ON - JX202849, possibly for 2WW service.

Edited 8 April by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, RNCVR said:

 

@Nannysavior

Well first off, the subject of this photograph is likely a Marine or possibly Army, he is not a sailor. John Charles Tomlinson (ADM 188 above) is a Stoker rating.  @FROGSMILE will know for sure.

& his service record is terrible to say the least. Two 3 day stints in cells very early in his career, then a Desertion on 28 Dec 1908, from which he was subsequently recovered 28 Jan '09 & subsequently was sentenced to 28 days in Detention with HL (hard labour).  Then another stint of 8 days & 3 days in cells whilst serving on HMS Exmouth. Then Discharged SNLR, 28 Apl 1910. Services No Long Required - "being a constant source of trouble".

From the central entry (Record transferred to card) on his ADM 188 is appears as if he was permitted to rejoin under  ON - JX202849, possibly for 2WW service.

He’s wearing an Army uniform so not a Royal Marine.  His upper garment is a scarlet tunic by the look of it (although the usual front piping in white isn’t visible) and his regiment English, or Welsh, without any Royal appellation, as his collar and cuffs are white.

He looks like an Enlisted Boy Entrant to me and so between 14 and 17.  The cap and badge together suggest a date between 1898-1900, and it’s possibly a Militia battalion of his regiment, or perhaps a regular Boy recruit at the regimental depot.

The local unit for Grimsby was the Lincolnshire Regiment.  It’s almost certainly the badge that can be seen at an oblique angle on his folding field service cap.

 

Edited 8 April by FROGSMILE

[Nannysavior]

55 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

@Nannysavior

Well first off, the subject of this photograph is likely a Marine or possibly Army, he is not a sailor. John Charles Tomlinson (ADM 188 above) is a Stoker rating.  @FROGSMILE will know for sure.

& his service record is terrible to say the least. Two 3 day stints in cells very early in his career, then a Desertion on 28 Dec 1908, from which he was subsequently recovered 28 Jan '09 & subsequently was sentenced to 28 days in Detention with HL (hard labour).  Then another stint of 8 days & 3 days in cells whilst serving on HMS Exmouth. Then Discharged SNLR, 28 Apl 1910. Services No Long Required - "being a constant source of trouble".

From the central entry (Record transferred to card) on his ADM 188 is appears as if he was permitted to rejoin under  ON - JX202849, possibly for 2WW service.

Truly is a shocking record - it's a wonder the RN had him back. He stowed away & ended up in Russia at 14 - maybe this is the point he lied about his age. He looks very young in the photo, I still hope to date it. I've attached WW1 pdf - he did get better with age, thankfully & was finally discharged at 55 after a heart attack. I remember him as elderly man, he died 1963 when i was 9.BT-377-7-48145-1.pdf

[FROGSMILE]

I have already dated it for you.  1898-1900 (1902 at the very latest).  And he’s dressed in an Army uniform not Royal Navy.

[Nannysavior]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I have already dated it for you.  1898-1900 (1902 at the very latest).  And he’s dressed in an Army uniform not Royal Navy.

Oh wow, thankyou - so he was a boy soldier before his RN enlistment in 1907? This was maybe when he added a year on to his age making 12 to 13. I can picture the uniform with the images you've shared - thankyou so much, I'm very grateful to you. 

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Nannysavior said:

Oh wow, thankyou - so he was a boy soldier before his RN enlistment in 1907? This was maybe when he added a year on to his age making 12 to 13. I can picture the uniform with the images you've shared - thankyou so much, I'm very grateful to you. 

Boy Entrants were obliged to sign on for lengthy engagements to justify the Army’s investment in them (and some say to exploit them), so to leave (be discharged) early usually meant one of three things.  He was either medically discharged, discharged for disciplinary reasons as - ‘unlikely to make an effective soldier’ - or he simply ran (absconded himself from barracks without permission) and became ‘absent without leave’.  Given his later naval record that wouldn’t seem an out of character possibility.

Edited 9 April by FROGSMILE

[horatio2]

7 hours ago, Nannysavior said:

I've attached WW1 pdf - he did get better with age

But not in WW1. He served from October 1914 as a Deck Hand in the RNR Auxiliary Patrol and (surprise, surprise) deserted again on the day before the Armistice. He was recovered from desertion after about a month on the run and demobilised and discharged from the RNR in March 1919.

His WW2 service in his fifties. however, only shows a slightly more conventional attitude to service. In a succession of relatively quiet shore drafts, he managed to earn himself 51 days detention for unknown offences against naval discipline in mid-1941. Prior to that he had manage to persuade the system to advance him from Able Seaman to Acting Petty Officer for four months (Jun - Oct 1940). That mistake was not repeated.

[FROGSMILE]

The 1st Battalion of the Lincolnshire Regiment was based in Malta between 1895 and 1897, when it moved to Egypt.  Boy Entrants usually served 6-months in Britain before posting overseas, unless they were directly recruited whilst the dependent of a parent already serving in the battalion.  It at least gives the window of time within which he enlisted.  Do you know if his father was a soldier?

Malta was also the premier Royal Navy base in the Mediterranean, if I remember correctly, so it seems possible that he went AWOL in Malta (discipline of Boys was strict in an infantry battalion) and perhaps somehow enlisted with the Royal Navy, thinking it would eventually get him a ‘free’ passage home to Britain**.

** However, that doesn’t seem to match with dates in his Naval record, so a discharge from the Army first seems more likely.

Edited 9 April by FROGSMILE

[horatio2]

10 hours ago, RNCVR said:

(Record transferred to card) on his ADM 188

That stamp refers to the other record for Chief Stoker DEWHURST on that page.

[horatio2]

To enlist as a stoker he had to be 18 years of age. That would explain why he stated his d.o.b. to be 12 January 1889 hen he enlisted on 28 December 1907, apparently two weeks before his 19th birthday. By October 1914, when he enrolled in the RNR for WW1, he gave his (true?) d.o.b. as 12 January 1890 and, presumably, carried that d.o.b. forward to WW2.

After-note  -  he forfeited his three WW1 medals for desertion in 1918.

Edited 9 April by horatio2

[Nannysavior]

Thankyou all for your comments & information - I would never have deciphered the records without your help. It's not been easy reading, though no surprise either. His father was a railwayman, his mother died when he was 11 & it seems like he started running & never stopped.

The photo I have is a copy, my uncle has the original - I need to check the reverse.

Re his d.o.b. it's1890 - I have his BC dated 1923.

He was a fisherman between the wars, returning in 1945 until shortly before his death - my father would never speak ill of him even though he was awol from his 7 children's lives too.

Many thanks, once again

[horatio2]

His WW1 service, of particular relevance to this Forum, is hard to read but my best shot at his very active (minesweeping and armed patrolling) WW1 RNR history is as follows. A pity he spoiled it right at the end :-

15 Oct 14      drafted to hired Grimsby trawler (mineseeper) LAPWING (later LAPWING III) at Grimsby. LAPWING transferred to Lowestoft base (HMS HALCYON) on the same date.

29 Oct 14      discharged from HALCYON at Lowestoft. LAPWING transferred to the Firth of Forth HMS COLUMBINE)the following day.

30 Oct 14      drafted to Hired Hull trawler (minesweeper) CAIRO based on depot ship HMS ZARIA at Orkney.

21 Jan 15      drafted to hired Fleetwood trawler SITVEL also based on depot ship HMS ZARIA at Orkney.

1 Apr 15        drafted to hired Grimsby trawler PERIHELION also based on depot ship HMS ZARIA at Orkney.

24 Jun 15      drafted to hired Hull trawler ORSINO also based on depot ship HMS ZARIA at Orkney.

?? ??? 16      drafted (again) to Hired Hull trawler (minesweeper) CAIRO based on depot ship HMS ZARIA at Orkney.

9 May 17       drafted to hired Buckie drifter (net vessel) HARVEST HOPE based on depot ship HMS BRILLIANT at Lerwick, Shetlands.

26 Jan 18      HARVEST HOPE transferred to HMS AMBITIOUS which had taken over the base role at Lerwick.

24 Apr 18      drafted to the Admiralty whaler HMS BELUGA based on HMS ZARIA at Scapa Flow, Orkney.

22 Aug 18     drafted ashore to HMS WALLINGTON the base at Immingham on the Humber.

10 Nov 18     deserted from WALLINGTON.

19 Dec 18     recovered from desertion.

18 Mar 19     demobilised and discharged from the RNR.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Nannysavior said:

Thankyou all for your comments & information - I would never have deciphered the records without your help. It's not been easy reading, though no surprise either. His father was a railwayman, his mother died when he was 11 & it seems like he started running & never stopped.

The photo I have is a copy, my uncle has the original - I need to check the reverse.

Re his d.o.b. it's1890 - I have his BC dated 1923.

He was a fisherman between the wars, returning in 1945 until shortly before his death - my father would never speak ill of him even though he was awol from his 7 children's lives too.

Many thanks, once again

I’m glad to help with the little bit that I have.  By far the longest part of his service life was with the Royal Navy, but he did spend a little time with the Army in a specific category.  The minimum age for Enlisted Boy Entrants was always aligned with the statutory Education Act and went up with each revision.  Originally it was set at 12 and after the second Boer War 13, then after WW1 raised to 14, and after WW2 raised to 15.

The preferred enlistment age, though, was between 14 and 16, as it was hard to estimate whether a boy would reach the minimum height for a soldier by the time he reached the adult age of 18.  This was a particular problem for the Army, as those Boys who came from unfortunate circumstances often suffered the ill effects of past generations of malnutrition. 

Each boy had to have the written permission of his parents or guardians and was specifically engaged in either, a musical or artisan role.  The former band boy, or drummer boy, and the latter tailor, or shoemaker.  In each case he came under a sergeant specialist as his apprentice master.

Given the date of birth you have quoted I think that he must have enlisted at an early age, perhaps in part because he was motherless and his father ill-equipped to look after a young child.  If he really was in Malta then he must have been born before 1890, given that the 1st Lincolnshires arrived in Malta in 1895 and left in Spring 1897.  Alternatively he perhaps only served at the regimental depot in Britain for a short time, and was then compulsorily discharged for one of the reasons I quoted above (or ran away).  In theory his Army enlistment documents (‘Attestation’) should survive in the archives.

Edited 9 April by FROGSMILE

[Nannysavior]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

His WW1 service, of particular relevance to this Forum, is hard to read but my best shot at his very active (minesweeping and armed patrolling) WW1 RNR history is as follows. A pity he spoiled it right at the end :-

15 Oct 14      drafted to hired Grimsby trawler (mineseeper) LAPWING (later LAPWING III) at Grimsby. LAPWING transferred to Lowestoft base (HMS HALCYON) on the same date.

29 Oct 14      discharged from HALCYON at Lowestoft. LAPWING transferred to the Firth of Forth HMS COLUMBINE)the following day.

30 Oct 14      drafted to Hired Hull trawler (minesweeper) CAIRO based on depot ship HMS ZARIA at Orkney.

21 Jan 15      drafted to hired Fleetwood trawler SITVEL also based on depot ship HMS ZARIA at Orkney.

1 Apr 15        drafted to hired Grimsby trawler PERIHELION also based on depot ship HMS ZARIA at Orkney.

24 Jun 15      drafted to hired Hull trawler ORSINO also based on depot ship HMS ZARIA at Orkney.

?? ??? 16      drafted (again) to Hired Hull trawler (minesweeper) CAIRO based on depot ship HMS ZARIA at Orkney.

9 May 17       drafted to hired Buckie drifter (net vessel) HARVEST HOPE based on depot ship HMS BRILLIANT at Lerwick, Shetlands.

26 Jan 18      HARVEST HOPE transferred to HMS AMBITIOUS which had taken over the base role at Lerwick.

24 Apr 18      drafted to the Admiralty whaler HMS BELUGA based on HMS ZARIA at Scapa Flow, Orkney.

22 Aug 18     drafted ashore to HMS WALLINGTON the base at Immingham on the Humber.

10 Nov 18     deserted from WALLINGTON.

19 Dec 18     recovered from desertion.

18 Mar 19     demobilised and discharged from the RNR.

 

 

Thankyou - amazing again! I knew he was at Scapa Flow & his first wife died around this time with a 2yr old which is why I'm researching him. I don't suppose there's a next of kin mentioned? He married my grandma, Miriam in 1923 as a widower (maybe why he needed a birth certificate) & she is named on his WW2.

[horatio2]

46 minutes ago, Nannysavior said:

I don't suppose there's a next of kin mentioned?

His RNR record card shows no N.O.K. but does list some Grimsby addresses:- 34 Railway Street on enrolment Oct 1914 ; 4 Edward Street from 31 Dec 1918 ; 56 Duchess Street on demob ; 12 Yellow Cottages off Garden Street 5 May 1920.

[Nannysavior]

45 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

His RNR record card shows no N.O.K. but does list some Grimsby addresses:- 34 Railway Street on enrolment Oct 1914 ; 4 Edward Street from 31 Dec 1918 ; 56 Duchess Street on demob ; 12 Yellow Cottages off Garden Street 5 May 1920.

Many thanks, once again - Railway St. was his older sister's home, Duchess St. his youngers sister's & he's lodging with his future inlaws in 1921  & ended up marrying their daughter (my Nanna T) - it became their family home for 50years. Edward Street is the one for me to check.

[Nannysavior]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m glad to help with the little bit that I have.  By far the longest part of his service life was with the Royal Navy, but he did spend a little time with the Army in a specific category.  The minimum age for Enlisted Boy Entrants was always aligned with the statutory Education Act and went up with each revision.  Originally it was set at 12 and after the second Boer War 13, then after WW1 raised to 14, and after WW2 raised to 15.

The preferred enlistment age, though, was between 14 and 16, as it was hard to estimate whether a boy would reach the minimum height for a soldier by the time he reached the adult age of 18.  This was a particular problem for the Army, as those Boys who came from unfortunate circumstances often suffered the ill effects of past generations of malnutrition. 

Each boy had to have the written permission of his parents or guardians and was specifically engaged in either, a musical or artisan role.  The former band boy, or drummer boy, and the latter tailor, or shoemaker.  In each case he came under a sergeant specialist as his apprentice master.

Given the date of birth you have quoted I think that he must have enlisted at an early age, perhaps in part because he was motherless and his father ill-equipped to look after a young child.  If he really was in Malta then he must have been born before 1890, given that the 1st Lincolnshires arrived in Malta in 1895 and left in Spring 1897.  Alternatively he perhaps only served at the regimental depot in Britain for a short time, and was then compulsorily discharged for one of the reasons I quoted above (or ran away).  In theory his Army enlistment documents (‘Attestation’) should survive in the archives.

Amazing write up & photos, thankyou - I've searched the Archives every way I can think of & not been able to find an Army record but I've copied everything & sent it to my Uncle - he had absolutely no idea but it all makes sense now! 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Nannysavior said:

Amazing write up & photos, thankyou - I've searched the Archives every way I can think of & not been able to find an Army record but I've copied everything & sent it to my Uncle - he had absolutely no idea but it all makes sense now! 

Are you 100% positive the boy soldier is definitely your grandfather and not his brother or cousin?  One of the excellent genealogical detectives here in the forum might be able to trace him.

[Nannysavior]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Are you 100% positive the boy soldier is definitely your grandfather and not his brother or cousin?  One of the excellent genealogical detectives here in the forum might be able to trace him.

It's not something I'd ever considered - as a boy my father looked uncannily like this photo. My grandfather only had 2 sisters & so did my grandmother. I recently found his youngest sister's granddaughter as my closest DNA match. I live near Grimsby & have used their archive before for fishing records & apprentices. Maybe they'd have welfare records for him & his sisters - I'll also try the Lincolnshire Regiment itself. I still need to see the back of the original photo too...& a huge thankyou for your efforts.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Nannysavior said:

It's not something I'd ever considered - as a boy my father looked uncannily like this photo. My grandfather only had 2 sisters & so did my grandmother. I recently found his youngest sister's granddaughter as my closest DNA match. I live near Grimsby & have used their archive before for fishing records & apprentices. Maybe they'd have welfare records for him & his sisters - I'll also try the Lincolnshire Regiment itself. I still need to see the back of the original photo too...& a huge thankyou for your efforts.

If that’s definitely him then there should still be an attestation form for him and a short, service record, because his service was well prewar and so in theory shouldn’t have gone into the store in Arnside Street where so many WW1 Army records were then destroyed by the WW2 Blitz.

[Nannysavior]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

If that’s definitely him then there should still be an attestation form for him and a short, service record, because his service was well prewar and so in theory shouldn’t have gone into the store in Arnside Street where so many WW1 Army records were then destroyed by the WW2 Blitz.

Interesting to know where the loss occurred - I've another missing Army record where I can only find the widows pension. I'll definitely carry on looking

[Nannysavior]

Update:- I found a Lincolnshire Regiment Facebook group, who suggested a file WO97 on FMP or National Archives - pre 1913 discharges? On Archives there was nothing but on FMP an October 1907 record which ended 2 months later - why am I not surprised to see the word 'arrested'? Also their explanation regarding the uniform :- 

'the uniform was only withdrawn for line infantry in Aug 1914...The Guards kept scarlets, as did the Household Division with full dress,  and many Coros Of Drums and pipers. Regimental Bands had scarlets returned in 1978, only to lose them when most bands were disbanded in 1992'

Huge thanks to you all for your help - it's the end of a 30year search for me & great to be able to share it with his youngest son.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Nannysavior said:

Update:- I found a Lincolnshire Regiment Facebook group, who suggested a file WO97 on FMP or National Archives - pre 1913 discharges? On Archives there was nothing but on FMP an October 1907 record which ended 2 months later - why am I not surprised to see the word 'arrested'? Also their explanation regarding the uniform :- 

'the uniform was only withdrawn for line infantry in Aug 1914...The Guards kept scarlets, as did the Household Division with full dress,  and many Coros Of Drums and pipers. Regimental Bands had scarlets returned in 1978, only to lose them when most bands were disbanded in 1992'

Huge thanks to you all for your help - it's the end of a 30year search for me & great to be able to share it with his youngest son.

Excellent, well done, that certainly looks like him alright.  Basically then he presumably ran away from barracks and enlisted in the Royal Navy with the thought that he would not be easily found there.

An important point is that he enlisted with the Militia (3rd Battalion) rather than the Regular Army (1st and 2nd Battalion).  The Militia recruits were intended to be auxiliary soldiers and usually completed 4-months training and then went home to civilian life, but were then on call for government decreed emergencies, and in return received a cash payment (bounty) each year. This latter aspect was by far the main motivation for joining, especially for young men reliant on seasonal work.

Regular soldiers did 6-months training and then joined their units as full-time professional soldiers.  Both types of soldier trained together at the same depot and it was a routine practice to try and get any of the more promising militia lads to transfer to the regulars at the 4-month point.  There was very little difference in uniform between them, although he was photographed wearing a cap being phased out and I wondered if that’s because he was not a regular.

In theory then he might not have run away, but instead completed his 4-months basic training and then rather than going home joined the Royal Navy, I don’t think it was illegal to do that if joining the RN as a regular, but forum member @horatio2 will be best placed to comment.  From what I can gather though, he seems only to have completed 8-weeks of Army training, which makes me wonder if there was an option for ‘free discharge’** at the halfway point.  Something similar has existed for a long time now, but I’m unsure when that was introduced.

NB.  The following year, in 1908, the Militia was abolished and replaced by a new force of auxiliaries titled the Special Reserve, whose role was rather different, although the recruitment and training process was similar.

** Termed “discharge as of right”.

 

Edited 11 April by FROGSMILE

[horatio2]

An RN recruit would normally be required to declare previous service when signing his Engagement Form for RN Continuous Service (the equivalent of an army attestation).

In this case his engagement should have survived and may now be found in Engagement Ledgers in the archive of the Fleet Air Arm Museum (National Museum of the Royal Navy). These engagements are not available online but it should be possible to order and purchase a copy under his RN Official Number 312531 and full names.

Interestingly, on 1 January 1908 the RN adopted a new system of Official Numbers, with stokers given a prefix 'K'. Stoker TOMLINSON was one of the last eight to be numbered under the six-digit system which had come into effect in 1894. Engagements before 1905 have not survived.