Messines sector - "D" Battalion area - looking for evidence of where this was precisely

[Simondmd]

25 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Gee Simon, you are making this difficult by creating a brand new thread for each question on essentially the same person, same battalion, same operation, same date.  There are several of us with an interest in maps and locations but you are taking away the context of each response.  I've flicked back to your original thread several times and your second one to answer this.  The Messines defensive scheme is shown on the maps in your first thread.

To answer this thread, the "D" Battalion area was the left (rear) support of the Messines sector defence, outlined in yellow.  The Messines sector had 3 brigades holding it and at the time of your interest, 9 Brigade AIF was Front Line Brigade.  It had 2 battalions forward holding the line ("A" and "B" battalion) and 2 battalions in support.

"B" battalion was Left Front Line Battalion (light-blue shading).  "A" battalion was Right Front Line Battalion (violet shading).  "D" battalion was Left Support Battalion (yellow shading).  "C" battalion was Right Support Battalion (red-orange shading).  This is corroborated by 42 Bn, who say that on 2 July they took front line left sector from Steignast Farm to Blauwepoorbeek.  On 6 July they reported moving into support area with 3 companies forward and 1 company near St Quentin Dump.  On 1 July they say "Btn was relieved in MESSINES sector (left support or D Btn) by 36 Bn AIF".  So corroboration is good.

Note that the rear battalion had a variety of roles & duties and presumably had 3 companies in "D" Battalion and one outside in the other Brigade area, as noted in the scheme of defence.

Click on the map to enlarge - it is Wytschaete Sheet 28 SW 2 & 28 SW 4 [pasted together] 1:10,000 6A Jul 1917 Annotated extensively. Left hand side missing German Trenches corrected to July 18, 1917. Printed 18/07/1917 id: m_86_000005
 

That's great thank you. I am gradually feeding all these precise spots into my bike navigation app, so this and your next image are wonderful. Sorry (all) about the mutiple threads, I thought using same thread would go unnoticed. Will keep all things AIF36th and George Henry Jones Davies in here.

 

[Simondmd]

25 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

The three threads merged. As WhiteStarLine says it makes life complicated and confusing with multiple threads about basically the same thing. If you have any more questions, please keep them on this thread. Thank you. 

Thanks Michelle, sorry, still finding my feet

[Simondmd]

On 07/04/2024 at 13:53, WhiteStarLine said:

Gee Simon, you are making this difficult by creating a brand new thread for each question on essentially the same person, same battalion, same operation, same date.  There are several of us with an interest in maps and locations but you are taking away the context of each response.  I've flicked back to your original thread several times and your second one to answer this.  The Messines defensive scheme is shown on the maps in your first thread.

To answer this thread, the "D" Battalion area was the left (rear) support of the Messines sector defence, outlined in yellow.  The Messines sector had 3 brigades holding it and at the time of your interest, 9 Brigade AIF was Front Line Brigade.  It had 2 battalions forward holding the line ("A" and "B" battalion) and 2 battalions in support.

"B" battalion was Left Front Line Battalion (light-blue shading).  "A" battalion was Right Front Line Battalion (violet shading).  "D" battalion was Left Support Battalion (yellow shading).  "C" battalion was Right Support Battalion (red-orange shading).  This is corroborated by 42 Bn, who say that on 2 July they took front line left sector from Steignast Farm to Blauwepoorbeek.  On 6 July they reported moving into support area with 3 companies forward and 1 company near St Quentin Dump.  On 1 July they say "Btn was relieved in MESSINES sector (left support or D Btn) by 36 Bn AIF".  So corroboration is good.

Note that the rear battalion had a variety of roles & duties and presumably had 3 companies in "D" Battalion and one outside in the other Brigade area, as noted in the scheme of defence.

Click on the map to enlarge - it is Wytschaete Sheet 28 SW 2 & 28 SW 4 [pasted together] 1:10,000 6A Jul 1917 Annotated extensively. Left hand side missing German Trenches corrected to July 18, 1917. Printed 18/07/1917 id: m_86_000005
 

Hi Bill, Thanks for you message. I have quite a few questions (several on the map markings), if you don't mind (I been googling trying to find out):

R.A.P. & Bearer Post - what do the first 3 letters stand for (I assume this is where the stretchers came to then evacuate wounded down the green railway line)?

S.P. 4.0.34 and the blue dotted lines linking them; are these 'Signal Posts' and the line is a wire connecting them

what are the red circles and lines joinging them? More communications infrastructure?

Is O.P. observation post?

Are the lines of blue crosses barbed wire or some other defensive obstacle?

I can only see one Company HQ in the area, and there were four companies; do you think this served them all? Do you have any idea where men would sleep in an area like this? Maybe all along the trench running up to the Coy HQ?

Can you point me at somewhere which shows "F" & "G" Battalion areas; I see that my guy's BN relived 34th in "F" on 1st July, and then retired to "G" when relieved on 7th July.

Finally, my ancestor was moved to "D" Battalion area on 11th July and the BN did not move out before he was killed on 12th July "whilst burying two friends". I'd be interested in what you made of this? Where could he have been burying them, in the area or had he gone to a make shift cemetery area? 

I have been constructing an overlay of spots of interest on a satellite image to help me when I'm on the ground, although I will use the new Trenchmapper if it's live then.

Sorry, these are a lot more questions than I intended; they just tumbled out. Please don't feel obliged

Many thanks 

Simon

[Michelle Young]

RAP- Regimental Aid Post

[WhiteStarLine]

13 hours ago, Simondmd said:

R.A.P. & Bearer Post - what do the first 3 letters stand for (I assume this is where the stretchers came to then evacuate wounded down the green railway line)?

S.P. 4.0.34 and the blue dotted lines linking them; are these 'Signal Posts' and the line is a wire connecting them

what are the red circles and lines joining them? More communications infrastructure?

Is O.P. observation post?

Are the lines of blue crosses barbed wire or some other defensive obstacle?

I can only see one Company HQ in the area, and there were four companies; do you think this served them all? Do you have any idea where men would sleep in an area like this? Maybe all along the trench running up to the Coy HQ?

Can you point me at somewhere which shows "F" & "G" Battalion areas; I see that my guy's BN relived 34th in "F" on 1st July, and then retired to "G" when relieved on 7th July.

Finally, my ancestor was moved to "D" Battalion area on 11th July and the BN did not move out before he was killed on 12th July "whilst burying two friends". I'd be interested in what you made of this? Where could he have been burying them, in the area or had he gone to a make shift cemetery area? 

I have been constructing an overlay of spots of interest on a satellite image to help me when I'm on the ground, although I will use the new Trenchmapper if it's live then.

Hi Simon,

• As Michelle said, RAP is the Regimental Aid Post, where the battalion's own medical staff triaged casualties (bandaging / stabilising fractures / stemming bleeding etc) ready for the evacuation chain.  If a casualty who could have been saved was not operated on within 2 hours, then they would most likely die.  Stretcher bearers were highly mobile (at Passchendaele they were even waved into the German lines) so the posts were where they concentrated ready to be called forward.

 

• S.P. is strong point - for some time now both sides had stopped cramming front line trenches full of men waiting to be killed in the next enemy bombardment.  With innovations such as Lewis Guns, they could compensate for reduced manpower (fewer volunteers recruited) and place 3 or 4 men in a well prepared locality with strict instructions of what to do under attack, how long to hold for and when to withdraw.  The blue lines are the trenches the brigade was required to dig / enhance.  This is a defence scheme for an entire division so no communications diagrams on the battle map - these are separate and highly detailed and would be in the divisional signals war diary.  This is what my grandfather did.

 

• Red lines are (I think) junction points or coordination points.  Probably the former, although I'm going back 40 years when I was taught this.  Remember that this scheme had to cater for penetration - perhaps A Battalion would be overrun and D was now being fired on from a flank.  This is still known as "defence in depth".  The battalion boundaries are marked in black so the red lines might indicate zones in the defence where the reserve might have to occupy.  Junction points are points where both sub units must be able to cover with fire and coordination points are where the units agree who is covering the point.

 

• OP is observation point where artillery observers, battalion tactical HQ or signallers (or all 3 together) observed the battlefield.  The major weapon available to the brigade commander was artillery and they needed up-to-the-minute information on current enemy & friendly locations.  The brigade also had its own OP.

 

• Blue crosses are wire.  Other defensive measures might be there but the map will show the main bands of wire.

 

• This is a divisional defence scheme (on paper over 20,000 men at full strength), so it is not going to show all sub units and their HQ.  The companies in the support battalion (C & D) had very specific tasks and allocations.  These are well described in the unit war diaries, as it the accommodation, which I recall was in huts outside the defensive area.

 

• It's in the 11th Brigade AIF diary towards the end and in some of the others.  I glanced at it a few days ago and I don't think it's as nice and clear as the other.  The 42 Bn AIF described their exact position and their move to support battalion in terms of B and D so you would need to read other unit war diaries to find the same level of detail.  Remember this was a 2 brigade forward divisional defence, so it might be simply the same thing (EFGH) applied to the next brigade.

 

• He could have been burying them anywhere, with a makeshift cross.  Additionally there was once a Great War Cemetery right on the boundary of B & D battalions, west of Gapaard, called Blauwepoorbeek Cemetery.  They thought they had 140 bodies to exhume in that immediate area, post-war.

 

• TrenchMapper (April version) will let you trace lines, import / export and do bulk markers, but nothing beats a superb curated map like yours.  I would stick to that and use TrenchMapper to do an accurate trace of places and lines, then copy them from the clipboard and save locally.

[WhiteStarLine]

Now that you think he was killed on the evening of 12 July, looking at enemy hostile fire for that day, there were 60 rounds in the general area of Fanny's Farm (28.O.33.a.7.5) during the day.  Averaging 1 every 6 minutes.

[Simondmd]

I'm still getting to grips with the mapping - which of the above do you think fell near Finny's farm, I can't make any of them nearby. Those last two co-ordinates look to be going way back behind! I've scoured the BN and Brigade July War Diaries, where is this record.

I can't believe the vivid picture we are creating.

[WhiteStarLine]

It's Fanny's Farm on all maps and Fanny's Communication Trench in the defensive position.

The farm is in 28.O.33.  The 60 rounds landed in 3 locations close together.  Some of them landed in 28.O.33.b and d.  That's close enough, particularly for 150mm shells.  Who knows what the shell type was but if it was air burst with shrapnel, the effect would have been horrific.

The source was the 3rd Division artillery unit war diary.

 

[Simondmd]

46 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

It's Fanny's Farm on all maps and Fanny's Communication Trench in the defensive position.

The farm is in 28.O.33.  The 60 rounds landed in 3 locations close together.  Some of them landed in 28.O.33.b and d.  That's close enough, particularly for 150mm shells.  Who knows what the shell type was but if it was air burst with shrapnel, the effect would have been horrific.

The source was the 3rd Division artillery unit war diary.

 

Ah ok got it, and found the Division diary. So he was probably killed by 4pm. In the Red Cross note, when he says cemetery to the right of Fanny Farm, would you think that meant as you he was looking towards the front, or facing north? Subjective I know, but wondering if you picked up a sense for how they oriented themselves generally.

[Simondmd]

 

So, this where I am at. I think Pte (Signaller) George Henry Jones Davies,  #1094 (AIF 36th BN D Coy) was most likely killed close to 4pm in (or slightly to the west) of the shaded area near Fanny's Farm. Could be completely wrong, but the evidence makes a good case. The Red Cross note, and Roll of honour Circular both point to him being the go to soldier for burial services, and he was a trained Methodist minister/missionary (took services regularly in Coffs Harbour where he is on the WW1 remembrance board of the Uniting Church). The 3rd Division artillery hostile fire report puts the only shelling he could expected to have been near in O.33 b&d (the shaded area being bottom of b and all of d., ie the parts overlapping "D' Battalion area where 36th Battalion was supposed to be that day. The Red Cross report refers to the burial earlier that day, at which Pte Davies officiated, being on the right of Fanny Fm where there were already 6 other graves. If Pte Davies was 'killed whilst burying 2 friends' (as stated on the Honour Roll Circular), I would think they would have been at the same burial spot.

A huge thank you to one and all, now all I have to do is pedal from Dunkirk to Messines a week Thursday!!

Edited 10 April by Simondmd