Messines sector - "D" Battalion area - looking for evidence of where this was precisely

[Simondmd]

Hello, could someone advise me. Is there a site which shows WW1 trench/frontline positions superimposed on a modern map or satellite (I've come across Trenchmapper, and am happy to pay for that if it is the definitive place to use)? I'm off to explore the Battle of Messines area and hope to trace the last movements of my ancestor George Henry Jones Davies #1094 36th Bn AIF who died there on 12th July 1917 (ironically after the battle, "killed whilst burying two friends" the reports reads.

I have his war diary if anyone happens to read this and share an interest, and I have written a short account on his experiences mainly in his own words in my family achive website here:

https://app.weare.xyz/public/if-i-was-a-tree/articles/9oxdqh9ply2n

[BradleyShoebottom]

I use Trenchmapper almost daily while doing my PhD. Well worth the subscription.

[LDT006]

National Library of Scotland also has some, the link below should take you to Messines.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.0&lat=50.75989&lon=2.89602&layers=101464939&b=1&o=60

Luc.

[Michelle Young]

And Linesman

http://www.greatwardigital.com/

[Simondmd]

9 minutes ago, BradleyShoebottom said:

I use Trenchmapper almost daily while doing my PhD. Well worth the subscription.

 

9 minutes ago, LDT006 said:

National Library of Scotland also has some, the link below should take you to Messines.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.0&lat=50.75989&lon=2.89602&layers=101464939&b=1&o=60

Luc.

Brilliant thank you both - with these I am all set. We are going in April, and intend to cycle from Ypres to the Somme. Great anticipation

[BradleyShoebottom]

Are you bringing your bike or renting/buying while there? I am also going this summer to Ypres, Vimy, Amiens, Somme, Cambrai to Mons in last 100 days.

[Simondmd]

4 hours ago, BradleyShoebottom said:

Are you bringing your bike or renting/buying while there? I am also going this summer to Ypres, Vimy, Amiens, Somme, Cambrai to Mons in last 100 days.

We're taking our own. Ferry to Dieppe then cycle from there.

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi Simon,

The first trench map conversion and map overlay site was built to follow the journey of the 11th Infantry Brigade, part of the Third Division AIF.  Through the incredible generosity of the National Library of Scotland, it offered the 286 georeferenced maps from their collection.  Eventually it morphed into TrenchMapper, with 6,600 georeferenced maps from The Western Front Association, including 90 of Messines in the 1:10,000, 20K scales or aerial photos.

TrenchMapper's 90 maps include the report lines and boundaries for the assault, the barrage map that will tell you where he was almost to the minute and quite a few maps printed between the first and last days of July.  All georeferenced, with an opacity slider to view the modern landscape and 'drive' in Street View.

We've finished testing and version 2.0 due will be released in April.  This is a full GIS offering and works, to the extent possible, on mobiles, tablets and up to ultra-wide desktops (which you are probably not carrying on your bicycle).  Some GIS functionality is really too difficult to operate on a small mobile.  The features relevant to you are that if offers GPS location awareness with WiFi fallback, plus import GPS tracks (GPX / CSV / KML).  For a complex analysis, such as you are doing, it offers toolsets like line draw, elevation profile, image overlay (with drag / rotate / zoom / distort).  Or, drag and drop a KML of the Messines mines.

The lack of detail in the 36th Battalion or 9th Brigade unit war diaries were a bit disappointing, but in under 10 minutes I was able to source and overlay the complete front line sector for 9th Brigade as at 6am on 12 July 1917.  It's a bit rough and ready but could be improved with more care.  Then traced just the front line so that it can be displayed on a mobile phone so that as you cycle you know where the battalions were consolidating.

The first image shows the ANZAC Corps attack for Messines.  The second image overlays the front line systems at 6am on 12/7 and the third shows the trenches at the forward edge where they give way to strong points, listening points and defended localities.

If you are near Canberra before you go shout out.  Ironically, the UK based forum member who made this possible by scanning 10,000 paper maps at the IWM, is holidaying in Australia.  Click each image to enlarge:

 

[Simondmd]

I'm speechless, this is beyond incredible. I will certainly subscribe to this. We Are going about the 23rd April, so sounds like timing will be perfect.

Thank you so much! Alas I am not near Canberra, or I would be over like a shot to thank you in person. I live in West London, so a simple train to Newhaven, ferry and then pedal power to Ypres, down to the battlefields you have defined so clearly, then Armentieres. We will then get to the Somme and Thiepval where my friends ancestor is remembered. My poor ancestor (my grandfather's cousin) of course did not make it to enjoy a second 'big push'. 

I don't know if your connected to the AWM, but I am so grateful to them. They digitised and sent me the complete war diary of my George Henry Jones Davies, which has brought grim colour to my general fascination with this period.

This is what a produced to mark his time on earth and share with family and friends: https://app.weare.xyz/public/if-i-was-a-tree/articles/9oxdqh9ply2n

 

[Simondmd]

Hello,

In the AIF 36th Battalion unit diaries for June and the Battle of Messines Company D is to get into position at U.14.b.85.06

I assume this is some sort of grid reference. I have access to the Trenchmapper maps but cannot see how this might work there. Although there is a square with number 14 in it that could make sense on the 1:20,000 map showing the attack plan.

Can anyone help. I am going to the site in two weeks and would love to identify the grid reference.

Many thx

Simon

 

[RussT]

I think you will need the Sheet number in the front of that Reference - it should be mentioned in the War Diary.

Regards

Russ

[Michelle Young]

Is there a sheet reference in the war diary? By the way, it should be D company, not  company D, which is the American way. 

[Simondmd]

6 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Is there a sheet reference in the war diary? By the way, it should be D company, not  company D, which is the American way. 

Ah yes I see it at the top of the Appendix 

PLOEGSTEERT.28.S.W.4 Ed.4.B 1/10000

[Simondmd]

19 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Is there a sheet reference in the war diary? By the way, it should be D company, not  company D, which is the American way. 

I now have a copy of PLOEGSTEERT.28.S.W.4 Ed.4.B 1/10000

U.14.b.85.06

am pretty sure U.14 gives me the square

does 'b' indicate which of the 4 sub-squares in 14 I need? 

Then assume 85.06 is the grid reference within that little square?

[RussT]

Have a look here ................

How to read a British trench map - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk)

[Michelle Young]

Beat me to it Russ. 

[Simondmd]

Brilliant thank you both - will be amazing to be at these grid references.

Much appreciated.

S

[Michelle Young]

I’m sure @WhiteStarLine, who I see already posted some maps on a previous thread of yours should be able to help. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

44 minutes ago, Simondmd said:

I have access to the Trenchmapper maps but cannot see how this might work there.

Also very good, free and online is tMapper.
https://www.tmapper.com/

Just enter your full co-ordinate  - 28.U.14.b.85.06  in the search box and click on the tick, the screen will display the moden day map on the left, and the trenchmapo on the left, which you can adjust the opacity to reveal the aerial view.

[Simondmd]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Also very good, free and online is tMapper.
https://www.tmapper.com/

Just enter your full co-ordinate  - 28.U.14.b.85.06  in the search box and click on the tick, the screen will display the moden day map on the left, and the trenchmapo on the left, which you can adjust the opacity to reveal the aerial view.

oh wow that's amazing - thank you

[brianmorris547]

And this map on the NLS system shows square U 14 

Brian

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101464687

[Simondmd]

My ancestor was in AIF 36th Battalion at the Battle of Messines. The day before he died, 11th July 1917, 36th BN relieved 42nd BN in the "Messines Sector", referreed to as "D" Battalion area in the 9th Brigade War Diary. The Battalion diary does not help. I have not found a trench map marking "A"... "F" Battalion areas. 

They came under heavy bombardment on the 12th July, and this is when my ancestor died.

I know roughly where this was, but am hoping to find maybe a map or other record of where "D" Battalion area was. 

Many thx

Simon

[WhiteStarLine]

Gee Simon, you are making this difficult by creating a brand new thread for each question on essentially the same person, same battalion, same operation, same date.  There are several of us with an interest in maps and locations but you are taking away the context of each response.  I've flicked back to your original thread several times and your second one to answer this.  The Messines defensive scheme is shown on the maps in your first thread.

To answer this thread, the "D" Battalion area was the left (rear) support of the Messines sector defence, outlined in yellow.  The Messines sector had 3 brigades holding it and at the time of your interest, 9 Brigade AIF was Front Line Brigade.  It had 2 battalions forward holding the line ("A" and "B" battalion) and 2 battalions in support.

"B" battalion was Left Front Line Battalion (light-blue shading).  "A" battalion was Right Front Line Battalion (violet shading).  "D" battalion was Left Support Battalion (yellow shading).  "C" battalion was Right Support Battalion (red-orange shading).  This is corroborated by 42 Bn, who say that on 2 July they took front line left sector from Steignast Farm to Blauwepoorbeek.  On 6 July they reported moving into support area with 3 companies forward and 1 company near St Quentin Dump.  On 1 July they say "Btn was relieved in MESSINES sector (left support or D Btn) by 36 Bn AIF".  So corroboration is good.

Note that the rear battalion had a variety of roles & duties and presumably had 3 companies in "D" Battalion and one outside in the other Brigade area, as noted in the scheme of defence.

Click on the map to enlarge - it is Wytschaete Sheet 28 SW 2 & 28 SW 4 [pasted together] 1:10,000 6A Jul 1917 Annotated extensively. Left hand side missing German Trenches corrected to July 18, 1917. Printed 18/07/1917 id: m_86_000005
 

[WhiteStarLine]

For your cycling holiday, this should get you close to "D" Battalion:

50.764544,2.915528
50.764601,2.922385
50.765526,2.921374
50.766039,2.921212
50.767831,2.919480
50.768618,2.919588
50.769543,2.919480
50.770148,2.918884
50.770707,2.920201
50.771551,2.920219
50.772247,2.918361
50.772122,2.917585
50.772304,2.916448
50.772601,2.915997
50.772749,2.915095
50.772555,2.913742
50.772875,2.913092
50.772738,2.911901
50.771871,2.911721
50.770707,2.911685
50.769748,2.912028
50.768482,2.912713
50.767489,2.913381
50.766599,2.913886
50.765423,2.914879
50.764830,2.915312
 

[Michelle Young]

The three threads merged. As WhiteStarLine says it makes life complicated and confusing with multiple threads about basically the same thing. If you have any more questions, please keep them on this thread. Thank you.