2nd/5th Lancashire Fusiliers - 41392 Pte VERNON

[Ian Berry]

Hello,

I served in the British Army between 1971 and 1995 and as such have a keen interest in researching the military history of family ancestors. As such I have spent many hours at The National Archives reading through war diaries etc and have completed what you may term 'direct relatives of The Great War'. I am aware that many records were destroyed in the WW2 bombings of Woolwich where most of it was stored and that many Attestation documents no longer exist, as is the case of my Great Grandfather David Rothwell Berry 8 LNLR but by finding little bits here and there you can over time complete the story.

I am now looking at what you might consider 'indirect relatives', ie the husbands of Great Aunts. It is such that I am searching for information on the following soldier for whom I have found the medal records (Victory and BWM only). This relates to 41392 Pte LAURENCE VERNON 2nd/5th Lancashire Fusiliers. (Laurence is however sometimes mis-transcribed as Lawrence). Laurence was born 2nd Oct 1887 in Pendlebury Lancashire and married my Great Aunt Martha Ellen Berry in 1919 so she would not show as NOK. His mother and father were John and Sarah Vernon.

This is one of the last of my military ancestors I am trying to clear up but have drawn a blank so any direction or arcs of fire would be appreciated.

Thanks. Ian

(Sandhurst Berkshire)

[RussT]

The LF number 41392 is relatively high indicative of a relatively late enlistment - assuming he had no service with anyone else beforehand. If you know his date of birth, it might give a clue. EDIT - I now see you gave his DoB.

Looking at records for men with near LF numbers show that they were mainly conscripts being called up to join the Lancashire Fusiliers in mid February 1917 - they were joining the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion LF initially.

The record for 41406 has him joining the LF Depot of 14/02/1917, then the 3/LF on 15/02/1917 and, following training, to France on 10/07/1917 to join the 10/LF but he was very soon afterwards posted to 2/5th LF on 28/07/1917. It's likely the 10/LF posting was an administrative one at an Infantry Base Depot (probably 23/IBD at Etaples which handled drafts from the LF) where he would have stayed for a couple of weeks before being posted to the 2/5th LF in the field. It's possible but by no means certain that Vernon followed a similar route/timeline.

Regards

Russ

 

[Allan1892]

Are you aware that he was a prisoner of War?

The images attached may assist you (courtesy of Find My Past)

2 minutes ago, RussT said:

assuming he had no service with anyone else beforehand.

His entry in the BWM and VM medal rolls only shows 2/5th Lancs Fusiliers

[RussT]

4 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Are you aware that he was a prisoner of War?

A good spot.

Just these last few weeks I have been researching a man also captured with the 2/5th LF on 20/11/1917 - south of Cambrai during a subsidiary action by 164th Brigade of 55th Division on the opening day of the Battle of Cambrai:

An Apparent Mystery? Francis McAlly or McNally – Lancashire Fusiliers and Royal Field Artillery? - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

Regards

Russ

[Allan1892]

Morning Russ -- I have been following your post but I haven't contributed. I'm always interested in the Battle of Cambrai as one of my great uncles, Benjamin Hunter, (F31, Fearnaught) won his first MM for his actions between 20th and 27th November.

[Ian Berry]

Allan / Russ

Thanks for that excellent information, particularly the heads up on the POW record, I would never have found that one. It all just about fits with the exception of his year of birth given as 86 whereas his birth cert states 87 but for me that's close enough. Also, his father John's address 147 Station Road Pendlebury in 1917 because the last address I had was Bolton Road in 1911. Villers 20.11.17 also gives me a good indication of the particular action which I can follow up on.

As a slight aside, I was researching my wife's grandfather who was a German soldier in WW2, captured in Aug 44 in Normandy and taken POW to UK. I got his POW record from the International Red Cross.

Thanks again guys, something to work on at last.

[TEW]

There's a Casualty List dated 15/1/1918 that concurs with the POW status.

The home town of his next of kin is given as Clifton which I assume is the Clifton to the north of Pendlebury.

That seems a bit odd if Mr J Vernon of Pendlebury on the IRC forms is his NOK.

TEW

[Ian Berry]

Thanks TEW, that all fits. According to the 1911 census (I don't have access to the 1921), his father John was living on Bolton Road Pendlebury, which is the Clifton area where Clifton and Kearsley Colliery take their name (where my Great Grandfather died but that's another story). Lawrence did not marry until 1919 so his father John being NOK would fit.

Do you have an image of the Casualty list please?

Thanks

Ian

[clk]

Hi Ian,

Try this link - Link

Regards
Chris

[Ian Berry]

Spot on Chris, thanks for that

Ian

[Chef_Hendrix]

12 minutes ago, Ian Berry said:

Thanks TEW, that all fits. According to the 1911 census (I don't have access to the 1921), his father John was living on Bolton Road Pendlebury, which is the Clifton area where Clifton and Kearsley Colliery take their name (where my Great Grandfather died but that's another story). Lawrence did not marry until 1919 so his father John being NOK would fit.

Do you have an image of the Casualty list please?

Thanks

Ian

J Vernon is still living at 147 Station Road in 1921 with his daughter Edith and her husband Albert Wallwork.

[Chef_Hendrix]

In 1921 Laurence is living at 291 Manchester Road, Kearsley working as a "Boiler Fireman" with his wife Martha and daughter Vera. Send me a message if you want the two 1921 census emailed across.

 

Gaz

Edited 5 April by Chef_Hendrix

[Ian Berry]

That's really spooky, I wasn't aware that Edith married a Wallwork because the Wallwork's were neighbours of my Great Grandfather David Rothwell Berry (formerly 8 LNLR died 26 Nov 1916) when they lived at 281 Manchester Road in 1911. Also, in so much as I have been working on tree bits with a lady who is an authority on the Wallwork family. How bizarre.

Sorry, went off too early.... the 1921 Census would be appreciated please

Ian

[Chef_Hendrix]

6 minutes ago, Ian Berry said:

That's really spooky, I wasn't aware that Edith married a Wallwork because the Wallwork's were neighbours of my Great Grandfather David Rothwell Berry (formerly 8 LNLR died 26 Nov 1916) when they lived at 281 Manchester Road in 1911. Also, in so much as I have been working on tree bits with a lady who is an authority on the Wallwork family. How bizarre.

Sorry, went off too early.... the 1921 Census would be appreciated please

Ian

I love a little family twist like that when researching. I've messaged you with the 1921 census.

Gaz

[Ian Berry]

Excellent, cheers Gaz and thanks for your help. Much more meat on the bones now 👍🏻

[Chef_Hendrix]

29 minutes ago, Ian Berry said:

Excellent, cheers Gaz and thanks for your help. Much more meat on the bones now 👍🏻

No problem at all. Have you downloaded the 2/5th War Diary? It has a report on the day Laurence was captured. No doubt if you look at the HQ and other connected WDs for the 55th Division their may be additional information. 

Gaz

 

 

 

 

Edited 5 April by Chef_Hendrix

[Ian Berry]

I'm on it Gaz, just doing tasks for the Chief of Staff Domestic at the moment 🤦🏻

[Ian Berry]

Crikey, I have learnt so much today, and things I didn't know about the POW camps in Germany, despite having being posted there for 18 years and having a German wife. Munster 2 was a camp for soldiers as opposed to Officers and was situated on the Rennbahn (Racecourse).

Münster II Rennbahn (horse-track) Camp was one of four prison camps in Münster, Westfalen. It was a hutted camp constructed on the race-course with an administration building in the grand-stand. There were four blocks of specially constructed wooden barracks to hold prisoners, with each block consisting of 22 dormitory rooms capable of holding 200 men each. The camp population varied from 4,000 prisoners (300 of them British) in the earlier days, increasing to as many as 10,000 towards the end of the war. Most men slept on the floor with a paillasse and two blankets before being given coffee in the morning, barley and potatoes for dinner and maize soup in the evening. Prisoners were allowed out of doors every morning for one hour's recreation. The internees worked in the camp itself, or in coal mines (Augusta Victoria coal mine and coke works) or in agriculture. English prisoners worked in the stables of the 7th Army Corps Reserve Horse Depot. The men worked to improve the camp, later producing its own coins, and men could buy sausage and condensed milk from the canteen. Parcels from England were received but some items, such as alcohol, matches, candles and even compasses were confiscated.

It transpires that shortly after Armistice Day most POW's having been released had made it back to Calais by 15th Nov 1918.

Next job I guess is to try and discover more about his repatriation.

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