An Apparent Mystery? Francis McAlly or McNally – Lancashire Fusiliers and Royal Field Artillery?

[RussT]

I have a little mystery to share and perhaps help solve. I would welcome any views on the story described herein and a request for help in finding any genealogical information on this man (or these men!).

I have been studying a large group (> 700) of Royal Field Artillery (RFA) men who all transferred together from certain Reserve Batteries of the RFA, co-located at the No 2 RFA Depot at Preston, to certain Reserve Battalions of the Lancashire Fusiliers (LF) in mid-June 1916. The transfer was part of a much wider nation-wide wholesale transfer of many 1000s of men from the Royal Field Artillery to the Infantry which occurred from time to time throughout the war.

Upon being transferred, these particular RFA men were re-numbered in multiple blocks of consecutive LF numbers in approximate surname alphabetical sequence. Details of these men and their fate have been collated from various sources e.g. MICs/Medal Rolls, Service Records, Pension Index Cards/Ledgers & CWGC but inevitably there are quite a few unknowns in the LF number list owing largely to some of these sources (e.g. Service Records) being incomplete.

The image below shows a tiny portion within one of these LF consecutive number blocks for those men having surnames starting with “M”. There exists an unknown for the man who had the LF number 25928. This man would have existed and the prediction is that he would have had a surname beginning with “M”.

When new record sources become (more) accessible e.g. they are digitised, these are checked to see if any of the unknowns in the LF number list can be identified.

In checking the Medical Admission & Discharge (A&D) Registers in the so-called MH106 record set, I found a man named McAlly (transcribed by Ancestry with the forename initial “J”) having the Lancashire Fusiliers number 25928. There is a note on his record questioning his surname as McNally. He is reported as serving with the 15^th Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers and was admitted to the No 3 Casualty Clearing Station (3/CCS) on 22^nd November 1916 suffering from trench feet. He was evacuated the next day to the No 3 Ambulance Train (AT), whose War Diary confirms that it departed from the location of 3/CCS at 17:45 hours on the 23^rd November and arrived in Boulogne on the 24^th November at 05:15 hrs with 409 sick and wounded Officers and Other Ranks. Presumably, 25928 McAlly/McNally was unloaded from this AT and admitted to one of the Base Hospitals in Boulogne later that morning.

From its War Diary, 3/CCS was located at Puchevillers during November 1916. At the same time the 15^th Battalion LF War Diary records that they were at Beaumont Hamel, which is about 15 miles due east of Puchevillers. The 15^th Battalion LF were part of 32^nd Division whose Assistant Director of Medical Services War Diary records that the 3/CCS was part of the medical evacuation chain for the Division’s three Field Ambulances during this period. The 3/CCS Medical A & D record for 25928 McAlly (or McNally) of the 15^th Battalion LF is consistent with the closing operations on the Somme (Battle of the Ancre) by V Corps in November 1916.

In checking the WO Weekly Casualty Lists, I came across a couple of entries for an LF man named F McAlly who had the Lancashire Fusilier number 25928. In the first, dated 05/01/1918, he is reported alongside other LF men on a Wounded and Missing List and in the second, dated 25/02/1918, he is now reported as being a Prisoner of War (PoW) in German hands. Both of his WO Casualty List entries have the location “Glasgow” recorded against his name/number.

Despite an extensive search of the MICs and Medal Rolls, it seems no one with this combination of name and number served in the Lancashire Fusiliers. Examining the Medal Rolls for the other 16 men reported on the WO Wounded & Missing Casualty List reveals that they were all serving with the 2/5^th Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers at the time. It turns out that many of these missing men were in fact killed in action (but not F McAlly) and are commemorated in CWGC as having died on the 20^th November 1917. Indeed, CWGC commemorates a total of 57 men of the 2/5^th Battalion LF as having died on 20/11/1917.

The 2/5^th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers were in 164^th Infantry Brigade of the 55^th (West Lancashire) Division. The 2/5^th Battalion LF War Diary records that they were south of Cambrai at Tincourt in early November 1917 but moved to Lempire on 17/11/1917 preparatory to a Brigade attack in that area as part of a subsidiary operation by VII Corps in support of the opening phase of the Battle of Cambrai, which commenced on the 20/11/1917. The attack launched that day by 164^th Infantry Brigade was not, in itself, successful. The Brigade War Diary records considerable losses comprising 571 casualties including 103 reported missing in the 2/5^th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers most of whom were taken prisoner – with 25928 F McAlly evidently being one of those confirmed as a PoW in the subsequent WO Casualty List posted above.

It seems safe to conclude that 25928 McAlly (or McNally) of the 15^th Battalion LF recorded in the 3/CCS A & D Register in November 1916 is the same man as 25928 F McAlly of the 2/5^th Battalion LF reported as missing and a PoW in the January/February 1918 WO Casualty Lists. At some point in time following his treatment for trench feet in November 1916 he was evidently posted from the 15^th Battalion to the 2/5^th Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers. Such a posting from one Battalion to another was quite common particularly following the recovery from an illness or a wounding.

Finally, searching the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) PoW records returns two entries for a 25928 Francis McNally of the Lancashire Fusiliers.

The ICRC records reveal that he was in A Company of the 2/5^th Battalion LF when he was captured (unwounded) at Lempire on 20/11/1917 (although one record states 20/01/1917). His date of birth is recorded as 01/01/1896 and place of birth as Glasgow (although one record states Newport). The residence of his next of kin is given as 41 Dean Street, Newport in Monmouthshire South Wales. He was held at Muenster 2 PoW Camp.

His ICRC PoW records are consistent, other than for the slight variation on the spelling of his surname, with the WO Casualty Lists and the known operations of the 2/5^th Battalion LF at Lempire south of Cambrai on 20/11/1917.

From all the evidence reported, there seems little doubt that 25928 Francis McAlly (or McNally) of the Lancashire Fusiliers existed. The three sets of records i.e. the Medical A & D Register, the WO Casualty Lists and the ICRC PoW records are completely independent of each other which, taken together, confirm the validity of his Name (subject to the minor spelling variation), his Regiment and his Regimental number. A man having the LF number of 25928 with a surname starting with the letter “M” is also fully consistent with the gap in the surname/numerical sequence of the LF list of men who were transferred from the RFA in June 1916.

The apparent mystery therefore partly centres on the lack of a MIC/Medal Roll for this otherwise well-documented soldier - 25928 Francis McAlly/McNally of the Lancashire Fusiliers. Given that he was a PoW with the Lancashire Fusiliers, there seems little reason or scope for him being transferred to a different Regiment or Corps after the war ended and before the compilation of the Medal Rolls. Whilst not all the MICs have survived, there is no evidence for any missing Lancashire Fusilier Medal Rolls although there is perhaps a remote possibility that he has been inadvertently omitted during their compilation.

There are around a dozen MICs/Medals Rolls for a soldier named Francis McNally serving in various other Regiments or Corps but none appear to be a credible candidate for Pte 25928 Francis McNally of the Lancashire Fusiliers. On the other hand there is just a single MIC/Medal Roll for a man with the forename Francis and the surname variant spelling of McAlly. He was a Driver in the Royal Field Artillery with the RFA number 105401:

Tellingly perhaps, both the MIC & Medal Roll for this RFA Driver named Francis McAlly are annotated with the remark “PoW Germany 20/11/1917”. This is the exact same date that Francis McAlly/McNally was captured whilst serving with the 2/5^th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers south of Cambrai as per his ICRC PoW records described earlier. Given that these diverse documents have nominally the same relatively unusual name and the same PoW date of 20/11/1917, then it seems too much of a coincidence for this RFA Driver not to be same man as the Private in the Lancashire Fusiliers, who would have been originally in the RFA.

The RFA number 105401 falls within a block of RFA numbers that were allotted to men joining the No 2 RFA Depot at Preston on or around 25^th August 1915. This location just so happens to be where the large group of RFA men were transferred to the Lancashire Fusiliers in mid-June 1916. Most of the near-numbered men were from, and had enlisted in, towns throughout South Wales, which fell within the Western Region and for which the No 2 RFA Depot at Preston was used for processing men joining the RFA. The ICRC PoW record for 25928 LF Francis McNally states that he had next of kin in South Wales (Newport, Monmouthshire). Some of these near-numbered men went on to serve overseas with the RFA with a few going overseas before 1916 and were thus entitled to the 1914/1915 Star although 105401 Francis McAlly RFA evidently did not.

The conclusion being drawn is that Pte 25928 Francis McAlly/McNally of the Lancashire Fusiliers is the same man as Driver 105401 Francis McAlly of the RFA, with the implication that he was transferred from the latter to the former alongside all the others in the large group (> 700) of fellow transferees at the No 2 RFA Depot at Preston in mid-June 1916. If true, then the question arises: why does he appear on an RFA Medal Roll rather than on a Lancashire Fusilier Medal Roll given that he served with the latter after the former? That is the apparent mystery. One scenario which presents itself is that he served overseas with the RFA after 1915 but was nevertheless back in the UK by June 1916 to be part of the large transfer of men from the RFA to the Lancashire Fusiliers at Preston. If this were the case, then his Medals would be correctly named to the RFA but he should still be on the LF Medal Roll given that the LF would be the last unit in which he served.

I would welcome any views on this apparent mystery – the credibility of the conclusion that it’s the same man and whether anyone has come across any similar examples of what appears to be a specific type of error in the compilation of a Medal Roll. If it is a simple administrative error, how could such an error arise?

Despite some personal clues gleaned from the various sets of records described above, I’ve not been able to find any genealogical information for this man (or men!) – e.g. birth/death, residence e.g. census information, marital status etc. Any help please on that front would be very much appreciated.

Regards

Russ

(Images courtesy of Ancestry & FindMyPast)

[corisande]

1 hour ago, RussT said:

Tellingly perhaps, both the MIC & Medal Roll for this RFA Driver named Francis McAlly are annotated with the remark “PoW Germany 20/11/1917”. This is the exact same date that Francis McAlly/McNally was captured whilst serving with the 2/5^th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers south of Cambrai as per his ICRC PoW records described earlier. Given that these diverse documents have nominally the same relatively unusual name and the same PoW date of 20/11/1917, then it seems too much of a coincidence for this RFA Driver not to be same man as the Private in the Lancashire Fusiliers, who would have been originally in the RFA.

That seems pretty conclusive to me

I think you will be lucky to get his family info, unless more clues emerge from his army records

On his personal info, I can tell you a lot about who he cannot be, but not a lot about who he actually is

• Both POW mentions give his birth as 1 Jan  1896,
• One gives Newport, other Glasgow
• No suitable birth anywhere round there in Newport, but lots in Glasgow
• The nearest I got was
• 
•  
• 1901 census in 36 Milton St Glasgow

• NameAge

  Francis Mcnalley27

  Jane Mcnalley28

  Margaret Mcnalley8

  Francis Mcnalley6

  Catherine Mcnalley4

  John Mcnalley7month

•  
• An Ancestry tree has his death as 4 NOV 1953 • Brooklyn, Kings, New York, USA
•  
•  
• The trouble is if you look at the other common variant of the name"McInalley" there are several Glasgow births for 1896
• And Red Cross info on dob I find in general very unreliable so difficult to be sure of DOB
• Basically he could be anybody from Red Cross DOB
•  
• The Newport address is (probably) 41 Dean St, Newport.
• People living there in 1921 are on FmP But he is not there, nor any link to Glasgow,
• You could take a punt on perhaps marrying Sarah Jane b1894, but no local marriages I can find for the pair

• John	Jones	Head	Male	1853	67	Monmouthshire, Wales	General Labourer	Walter Jones & Sons
  Harriett	Jones	Wife	Female	1873	47	Gloucestershire, England	House Duties	-
  Charles	Jones	Son	Male	1885	36	Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales	Ganger	Walter Jones Ltd Contractor
  Albert Edward	Jones	Son	Male	1903	17	Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales	General Labourer	St Julian Brick Yard Company
  Sarah Jane	Jones	Daughter	Female	1894	26	Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales	Home Duties	-
  Lily Rose May	Harris	Granddaughter	Female	1910	11	Cwmavon, Glamorganshire, Wales

•  

[RussT]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

I think you will be lucky to get his family info, unless more clues emerge from his army records

Thank you for those suggestions.

I don't think there are any more army records to emerge/consult - we are probably more than lucky with what we have, which is already more than most.

I was worried about the additional name variants. I can't find anything at all with the variant McAlly (and Francis) but the census records I have only cover England and Wales so if there is a Scottish connection, which looks likely, I might be missing something.

Regards

Russ

[corisande]

3 minutes ago, RussT said:

so if there is a Scottish connection, which looks likely, I might be missing something.

You need to get to know Scotland;s People. Costs online money if you want to access BMDs

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

[AndrewSid]

Russ,

Fascintating research.  I of course have an interest given my great uncle followed that path from the RFA to LF in June 1916 and you were kind enough  to help me figure some of it out.

Ive been in circles following your post.  You will of course have his HMSO repatriation listing on the 28 Jan 1919 list published on 4 Feb 1919 on page 6.  Details as per your other HMSO publication postings. 

I think his name was McAlly given the German records tendency to get names slightly wrong. 

I think it is the same man and the two scenarios are ones you have painted in that:  

1. A short posting to France with the RFA in early 1916.  This of course would have raised the MiC but does not explain the lack of further LF detail appearing in the roll or MiC.

2. A complete cock up by the clerk as he copied the wrong details from his service record. 

I think option 2 is the most likely but a very rare one.

Andy

 

 

 

 

[AndrewSid]

Russ,

is that ICRC address 41 Dean Street Newport?

I believe some of the absent voter listings survive.  An enquiry here might be worth a look?

https://www.gwentarchives.gov.uk/en/our-collections/archives/

 

[RussT]

18 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

You will of course have his HMSO repatriation listing on the 28 Jan 1919 list published on 4 Feb 1919 on page 6.

I didn't have that - thanks. It didn't come in my searches so I'll take a look for it. In the meantime, if you have a link to the record can you post the link on the thread, ta.

One nuance that I didn't post about, given that the post was already getting quite long, was the "experience/history" of these men in the RFA before their transfer to the LF. Invariably, they were men mobilised or called-up to the RFA just a few months or so before their transfer to the LF. If the Army Command needed a mass transfer of men, as this is, from one Corps (e.g. Artillery) to another (e.g. Infantry) in order to re-balance where needs were most pressing, then it would make most sense to transfer those men least trained in the donor (i.e. RFA) unit otherwise it would have been a waste of invested effort to transfer a more qualified man out.

In looking at all men on the RFA to LF transfer list, who have a known prior RFA number, it would make 105401 Francis McAlly one of the longest, if not the longest, serving member of the RFA before his transfer. If he had indeed gone overseas in early 1916 with the RFA, as a suggested scenario and as per your option 1, then that would have made him even more valuable for the RFA to retain him. This particular aspect of him, compared to all the others of being a relatively long-serving member of the RFA (from August 1915 to June 1916) before his transfer to the LF, is the strongest argument I can come up with as a counter argument to the conclusion drawn. But I still think it's the same man nevertheless !

With regards to the comment that any prior service overseas in early 1916 would have "raised the MIC" - we need to remember that the MICs were created after the Medal Rolls after the war ended and were compiled by clerical staff in each of the Regimental (or particular Corps) record offices who would be in possession of a man's service record. So if it's an administrative error, it's still puzzling.

30 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

s that ICRC address 41 Dean Street Newport?

I believe some of the absent voter listings survive.  An enquiry here might be worth a look?

https://www.gwentarchives.gov.uk/en/our-collections/archives/

 

That's how I read the address - thank for the link - something to follow up. I did look at digitised Absent Voter Lists on Ancestry and FMP but that came up blank.

Thanks for taking some time to have a ponder on it - often a fresh pair of eyes and thoughts can create a breakthrough.

Regards

Russ

 

[AndrewSid]

Russ,

His longevity in the RFA is indeed odd.  As you say, men with the shortest time in the RFA would be the logical transfers.  In my great uncles case his RFA time was 11 May 1916 to 17 June 1916, just over a month.  One of my small cohert was a school teacher who joined the RFA training school in April but was sent to the LF on 21 June, so arguably an asset to the RFA of sorts.  So perhaps a need to make up numbers for the Infantry or perhaps an opportunity to move men on who for whatever reason were not deemed required? Disciplinary perhaps?!

One thing of course is that they were fit men.  The Infantry standards and what was to come physically meant only A1 men would have ben sent id have thought.

Im curious how his service record ended up with the RFA for them to complete  the medal roll then?  Surely it would have made its way to the LF in the summer of 1916 and stayed there as he didn’t move Regiments post LF. Although I’m assuming a lot. Did service records follows a man as he moved Regiments as so many did as the war progressed?   It would perhaps suggest his was never forwarded or lost somehow and the roll  and POW annotation was an attempt/fudge  to latterly correct that?

Puzzling.

HMSO link to repatriation report: 

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194174699

 

 

 

 

[RussT]

2 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

Im curious how his service record ended up with the RFA for them to complete  the medal roll then?  Surely it would have made its way to the LF in the summer of 1916 and stayed there as he didn’t move Regiments post LF. Although I’m assuming a lot. Did service records follows a man as he moved Regiments as so many did as the war progressed?  

That's part of the overall mystery, on the assumption it's the same man. His Service Record would move to his new unit - if it didn't I don't see how he would get paid etc etc.

2 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

HMSO link to repatriation report: 

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194174699

Thanks for the link - it's useful to collect all the bits of records on him even if it gets us no closer.

I've never been able to work out what the criterion was (or what the criteria were) between who got transferred or who did not. For any given RFA man who was transferred to infantry and who was sent overseas, say, in late 1916, you can find the two men with RFA numbers either side of the transferee who also went overseas with the RFA after a comparable time. There seems to be a complete randomness as to who was selected for transfer - except for the general observation that the majority who did transfer tended to be relatively recent recruits to the RFA for the reason mentioned, which I think makes sense given the specialities involved in training an artilleryman.

Russ

 

[David Porter]

Russ,

Francis McAlly transferred back to the RFA on February 18, 1919 and served until 1928, mostly under the Army Number 1023073.

Image courtesy Findmypast

This is why his medals were handled by the RFA Record Office.
His service file still exists and will be, or already has been, transferred to the National Archives.

[AndrewSid]

My faith in Army administration is somewhat restored!  

Am I right in thinking his medals would therefore be annotated RFA?  Even though he never actually served in France or fought with them.

Thankyou David.  Searching for post WW1 service is something i must get better at. 

[RussT]

7 hours ago, David Porter said:

Russ,

Francis McAlly transferred back to the RFA on February 18, 1919 and served until 1928, mostly under the Army Number 1023073.

Image courtesy Findmypast

This is why his medals were handled by the RFA Record Office.
His service file still exists and will be, or already has been, transferred to the National Archives.

An excellent bit of sleuthing David, thanks very much. A bit frustrating that I didn't think of checking that Record set myself - but it's always better late than never!

The record summary proves it was the same man - and effectively all the details on that ledger align with what we had already assumed or predicted.

Usefully it confirms his surname was spelt McAlly - which is the most unusual spelling variant. But I'm still finding it impossible to find him in any pre war Census records etc.

It shows he was transferred to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers on 17/06/1916 - exactly as per his fellow transferees in his LF number block.

It states that he enlisted on 25/08/1915 as per that predicted from looking at near-numbered RFA men.

Enlisted in Cardiff as per noted for many of the others in the RFA near-numbered block.

Confirms he was taken prisoner on 20/11/1917 as per his RFA MIC/MR and the known actions of the 2/5th LF on that day south of Cambrai. Interestingly, it states he was wounded whereas the German PoW card says unwounded (semantics perhaps).

He was Glasgow born - so that clears up his place of birth.

There's an address in Abertillery, Monmouthshire, which helps clarifies that aspect a little more.

He was transferred (back) to the RFA in Feb 1919, well before the compilation of the LF Medal Roll ~ Sept 1920 and therefore, as noted, the administration of his medal entitlement was handled by the RFA Record Office.

Frustratingly, it does not give an exact date as to when he first went overseas - it "just" says France 1916-1917 (& PoW 1917-1919). As questioned by Andrew, the correct implication of his MIC/Medal Roll is that he first served overseas with the RFA - evidently sometime between Jan 1916 and Jun 1916, and he was then likely back out with the LF later in 1916. The earliest common date I have for these RFA to LF transferred men going overseas with the LF is late August 1916.

There is a possibility that the RFA Record Office have been a bit sneaky with regards to his medals and have "claimed" him as one their own so to speak given that he transferred back to them - but that he didn't actually go overseas first with the RFA. Hopefully, one day I might be able to view his Service Record to fully confirm one way or the other.

It's been an enjoyable exploration. If any of his relations were ever do a search for him, then hopefully we have left a good summary of his military timeline and have helped explain what appeared to have been a little mystery! Now solved - so on to the next one !

Regards

Russ

(Image courtesy FMP)

 

 

[RussT]

There is a 1921 Census record for him (as McAlly) in Aldershot, which will be him in Barracks (with some RFA unit) I would assume.

And it looks like he stayed down south later in life as he is registered in Kingston-upon-Thames in the 1939 Register, with the authorities correcting his surname to McAlly. That correction seems to leave little doubt that this was indeed the correct spelling.

Date of Birth in the 1939 Register is 01/01/1895 versus 01/01/1896 on his German PoW Record.

He's living in No 2 - 4 Vicarage Road with a bunch of other labouring chaps.

Single in 1939 so perhaps he never married/no kids.

Russ

(Image courtesy Ancestry)

 

 

[RussT]

Just for any future interest - here he is on the 1921 Census with  some of his RFA pals in Barracks at Aldershot.

Image courtesy Ancestry