Gnr Herbert Victor WAGSTAFF 88692, RFA - identifying unit from regimental number?

[alyson1985]

I am trying to find out information about my great granddad, Herbert Victor Wagstaff, born 30/06/1894, born and lived in London all his life (died 1972). From family stories I knew he served in France, talked about going to Wipers (though I wonder if that may just be a sort of nickname that many soldiers used for going to the front...? So maybe misleading) and possibly mentioned a battle with "Ridge" in the name - we don't think Vimy, older family members recall a longer word/name (sorry I know this is incredibly vague!). We are fairly certain that he was not in the TF/reserve before the war - he worked as a bus driver both before and after the war, and we know that he worked with/took care of the horses in the RFA due to his experience with horse drawn buses.

I've found his MIC and entries on the medal rolls from Ancestry, which have confirmed the following:

• Rank: Gunner
• Regimental number: 88692
• Corps: Royal Field Artillery
• Disembarkation date: 22/05/1915 (this date has "(1)" after it on the 14-15 star medal roll, not sure if this is relevant, can't see a footnote) - from further research I can see that this was right at the end of the battle of Ypres, so maybe he was there for the tail end, maybe not.
• He received the 14-15 star, Victory medal and British medal, which I understand was totally standard

I believe his service records were some of the many destroyed in the 1940 fire, I've searched the files on Ancestry (both using the text search and by laboriously scrolling through any possibly relevant sections page by page in case anything had been missed/misread/mistranscribed...all through the "H Wagstaff" section, as well as under Hubert, Bert, Albert, H, Victor...no dice. Suspect they are long gone.

I have read and followed the guides on the Long Long Trail website, which has been very helpful, but hasn't turned up any further information. He does not appear in any of the following:

• WO364 ("Unburnt records")
• PIN26 at the National Archives (in fact, can't find anything in TNA at all, apart from the medal records I already had from Ancestry)
• The London Gazette (didn't think he would, as I don't think he got any special awards, but I checked anyway)
• Absent Voters Lists
• He didn't get married or have any children while serving, so no marriage/birth certificates to check for info on his unit

I also ran a search of the forums here, and found a post by my mum about Herbert from 16 years ago...! She did receive a couple of helpful replies at the time, so thank you for those, but ultimately she wasn't able to find out much more. I'm hoping that more files having been digitised/more knowledge being shared or made available in the intervening years may mean I can get a bit further this time, fingers crossed.

One of the replies at the time suggested that his number may indicate he was in the TF before the war - we're pretty sure he wasn't, though it isn't totally impossible. We are now certain that this is the correct man and number - a google search of his regimental number and surname turned up his medals, for sale along with his son's RAF dogtags from WW2, identified via his service number...too much of a coincidence for two completely random Wagstaffs to have ended up in the same box by fluke! So I'm thrilled to say we do have those back, along with his RFA cap badge.

I also found another post on the forum about identifying RFA unit by regimental number - and, indeed, according to this page on the Long Long Trail, Herbert's number does seem to fall into the series for 272 Brigade of the RFA, for men renumbered from the TF...however, this renumbering took place in 1917, and Herbert only has one number on his MIC despite serving since 1915. So I suspect I'm totally barking up the wrong tree here, especially if we think he wasn't in the TF?!?! I know that different corps sometimes used the same numbers, but I don't know if they may have used the same numbers for different units within the RFA. I have seen some amazing knowledge shared on other posts about how regimental numbers were assigned, so I'd be very grateful indeed if anyone is able to shed any light on a possible unit for him. It may be worth mentioning that some of the men alongside him in the medal roll not only have immediately sequential numbers, but also a couple of them have the same disembarkation date and are also in the RFA - is it possible/likely that in this case they would have been assigned to the same unit/sent to the same place(s)? In which case I'll do some digging and see what I can find out about them. Of course, it may be that thousands of RFA men arrived on the same day and went all over the place...!

Finally, I'm very new at this...I have learned loads in the past couple of weeks, but please excuse me if I have overlooked some obvious source of information or made any other sort of gaffe. I'm not asking anyone to do the legwork for me - I just feel like I'm up against a bit of a brick wall chasing my tail, so would be grateful for any other info or leads, please! Thank you in advance 

 

[kenf48]

Welcome to the GWF and a hearty thank you for telling us what you already know and details of your research.  It does make it easier for members to help you.

One easy answer the (1) on the 14-15 Star Roll is the theatre of war in which he first served and qualified for the medal  1 is France and Flanders.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/medal-roll-theatre-codes/

@David Porter contributed to the previous post you mentioned and may be able to help more

Good Luck with your research

[Matlock1418]

22 minutes ago, alyson1985 said:

talked about going to Wipers (though I wonder if that may just be a sort of nickname that many soldiers used for going to the front...? So maybe misleading) and possibly mentioned a battle with "Ridge" in the name - we don't think Vimy, older family members recall a longer word/name

Welcome to GWF

3rd Battle of Ypres was an attack on a ridge at Passchendaele - might just fit your description [perhaps!!!???].

M

[David Porter]

Welcome to the Forum,

I've found your great grandad in a list of Drivers with D Battery, 48th Brigade RFA (14th Divisional Artillery).
This is dated December 20, 1915, so 7 months after being sent to France.

I see from his Medal Index Card that he was down as Gunner, so a change of designation after 1915.

The reference to TF renumbering involves six digit numbers only. Herbert was numbered with five digits, quite normal for a New Army recruit.
88692 would put him arriving at No. 3 Depot RFA, Hilsea, around August 20, 1914.

[mancpal]

I wondered if Messine Ridge (Flanders) may be connected but then again there is Hawthorn Ridge (Beaumont Hamel, Somme) and also Broodseinde Ridge (3rd Ypres known as Paschendaele).

Simon

Edited 3 April by mancpal

[alyson1985]

1 hour ago, David Porter said:

I've found your great grandad in a list of Drivers with D Battery, 48th Brigade RFA (14th Divisional Artillery).

This is dated December 20, 1915, so 7 months after being sent to France.

I see from his Medal Index Card that he was down as Gunner, so a change of designation after 1915.

The reference to TF renumbering involves six digit numbers only. Herbert was numbered with five digits, quite normal for a New Army recruit.
88692 would put him arriving at No. 3 Depot RFA, Hilsea, around August 20, 1914.

This is FANTASTIC information that I'd hardly dared hope to find! Thank you so so much, knowing this for sure will (hopefully) open up so much more information. Where on earth did you find this list? I'm in awe of your encyclopaedic knowledge 🤩

Driver also makes more sense than Gunner, since the only thing we knew for sure was that he worked directly with the horses.

Am slapping my forehead for not noticing the number of digits in the TF renumbered numbers...thanks for pointing out the obvious!

So of course now I have follow up questions, for anyone who might be able to help...

Am I right in thinking that many units have war diaries online? I've seen the 14th division battles info on the LLT website, but would love some more detail if possible. Would TNA be the place to start looking?

Might there be photos of his unit somewhere? I know that official photos weren't routinely taken, so this is likely to be a needle in a haystack job, but any pointers would be welcome.

Thanks again! I'm off to do some more digging, armed with his unit details,will report back.

[alyson1985]

Also, thank you to everyone for the warm welcome, this is a fantastic forum. Am hoping that with the newfound knowledge of his unit, I might be able to solve the "ridge" mystery once and for all! 

[Michelle Young]

War diaries here, up until end of 1916, free to download after free registration. 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352704

[alyson1985]

45 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

War diaries here, up until end of 1916, free to download after free registration. 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352704

Thank you, that's super helpful.

[kenf48]

 

49 minutes ago, alyson1985 said:

Am hoping that with the newfound knowledge of his unit, I might be able to solve the "ridge" mystery once and for all! 

The British Army, unlike the German Army which essentially was holding defensive positions for much of the Great War, was always on the move.  One reason for this is they were attempting offensive operations and so had to move men and material where they were needed when planning a major offensive.  In addition the British also employed a system of rotation, it was felt that maintaining a presence for too long in a trench led to disease and low morale.  Therefore men were moved at a local level spending perhaps four or five days in the front line, then in support then in reserve.  Another Battalion would then take over, and then another Division and so on.  Of course the artillery tended to be moved less frequently but nevertheless Divisions and their attached units would move from one sector to another.

Ypres is totemic to the war in Flanders.  It was a crossroads and a pivotal transport hub. 'Wipers' was the soldier's name for Ypres it was not generic for the Western Front, though they often mangled many other place names in France and Flanders and of course with it's religious connotations "Passiondale" has passed into popular culture as a metaphor for sacrifice and loss.

The British and French and their allies managed to stop the Germans at the First Battle of Ypres in 1914 from taking the city but the Germans held the high ground, not actually that high but they could fire at will into the town and the British positions. To understand the battles of  Ypres it is essential to understand the topography.  The Germans held the major Ridges or high ground and the objective of the fighting for the British in 1915 and 1917 was to drive them off those ridges. After the Second Battle of Ypres in 1915 the Germans held the Bellewaarde Ridge, and in June 1915 the British decided to attack this ridge but the losses were so great it was unsuccessful. I don't think he was involved in this first attack, though he may have been having arrived in France the previous month http://www.bellewaarde1915.co.uk 

You will see from the LLT the 14th Division was engaged at Hooge and on the 25th September 1915 the second attack on the Bellewarde Ridge. This was again unsuccessful with heavy losses for the Division. The Division was then moved out of the Ypres sector in preparation for the Somme Offensive in 1916.  They then returned to Ypres in time for the Third Battle of Ypres in 1917

 Initially successful. Messines Ridge was taken on the 7th June 1917 after extensive mining operations.  On the 31st July British then moved on to Pilckem Ridge with less success, as was inevitable the Germans mounted a fierce counter attack only stopped by artillery and darkness.  A key topographical  feature was the Gheluvet Plateau and on 4 October the British and their allies attempted to capture the Broodenseinde Ridge, initially successful and again supported by artillery the attack stalled. Finally later in the month they moved on to attack the Passchendaele Ridge.  Here the weather was well and truly against them. Again you will see from the LLT the 14th Division was engaged in three phases of the battle, at Langemarck and in the final phases at Passchendaele.  

There is a far more more detailed account on Wikipedia as an introduction to the battle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Passchendaele

 I think it is most likely the ridge you are looking for is probably one of the first actions he was engaged in, that of the Second Attack on the Bellewarde Ridge in September 1915. After that it seems likely his war, though eventful and hazardous, became more 'routine' and it was probably the first time he was under intense counter battery fire.  But your guess is as good as mine, there are lots of ridges around Ypres to pick from.

[alyson1985]

15 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

The British Army, unlike the German Army which essentially was holding defensive positions for much of the Great War, was always on the move.  One reason for this is they were attempting offensive operations and so had to move men and material where they were needed when planning a major offensive.  In addition the British also employed a system of rotation, it was felt that maintaining a presence for too long in a trench led to disease and low morale.  Therefore men were moved at a local level spending perhaps four or five days in the front line, then in support then in reserve.  Another Battalion would then take over, and then another Division and so on.  Of course the artillery tended to be moved less frequently but nevertheless Divisions and their attached units would move from one sector to another.

Ypres is totemic for the battle in Flanders.  It was a crossroads and a pivotal transport hub. 'Wipers' was the soldier's name for Ypres it was not generic for the Western Front, though they often mangled many other place names in France and Flanders and of course with it's religious connotations "Passiondale" has passed into popular culture as a metaphor for sacrifice and loss.

The British and French and their allies managed to stop the Germans at the First Battle of Ypres in 1914 from taking the city but the Germans held the high ground, not actually that high but they could fire at will into the town and the British positions. To understand the battles of  Ypres it is essential to understand the topography.  The Germans held the major Ridges or high ground and the objective of the fighting for the British in 1915 and 1917 was to drive them off those ridges. After the Second Battle of Ypres in 1915 the Germans held the Bellewaarde Ridge, and in June 1915 the British decided to attack this ridge but the losses were so great it was unsuccessful. I don't think he was involved in this first attack, though he may have been having arrived in France the previous monthhttp://www.bellewaarde1915.co.uk 

You will see from the LLT the 14th Division was engaged at Hooge and on the 25th September 1915 the second attack on the Bellewarde Ridge. This was again unsuccessful with heavy losses for the Division. The Division was then moved out of the Ypres sector in preparation for the Somme Offensive in 1916.  They then returned to Ypres in time for the Third Battle of Ypres in 1917

 Initially successful. Messines Ridge was taken on the 7th June 1917 after extensive mining operations.  On the 31st July British then moved on to Pilckem Ridge with less success, as was inevitable the Germans mounted a fierce counter attack only stopped by artillery and darkness.  A key topographical  feature was the Gheluvet Plateau and on 4 October the British and their allies attempted to capture the Broodenseinde Ridge, initially successful and again supported by artillery the attack stalled. Finally later in the month they moved on to attack the Passchendaele Ridge.  Here the weather was well and truly against them. Again you will see from the LLT the 14th Division was engaged in three phases of the battle, at Langemarck and in the final phases at Passchendaele.  

There is a far more more detailed account on Wikipedia as an introduction to the battle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Passchendaele

 I think it is most likely the ridge you are looking for is probably one of the first actions he was engaged in, that of the Second Attack on the Bellewarde Ridge in September 1915. After that it seems likely his war, though eventful and hazardous, became more 'routine' and it was probably the first time he was under intense counter battery fire.  But your guess is as good as mine, there are lots of ridges around Ypres to pick from.

Thank you for such a detailed explanation - I learned about the Western Front at school (and even went to Ypres), but that was many years ago now, and the I'm not sure we ever went into a huge amount of this kind of detail anyway. This is really helpful in understanding what went on.

[alyson1985]

2 hours ago, David Porter said:

Welcome to the Forum,

David, I've also just spotted that you're in Maidstone - my parents live in Staplehurst (and my nan, Herbert's daughter, lived there for 50 years too)...small world!

[David Porter]

1 hour ago, Michelle Young said:

War diaries here, up until end of 1916, free to download after free registration. 

Yes, 48th Brigade RFA became an Army Field Brigade on January 7. 1917, but that would seem irrelevant.
As Herbert was most likely in D/48 it became C/49 Bty on May 24, 1916 due to reorganization.
Then C/49 Bty was broken up to C/46 Bty and C/47 Bty on October 5, 1916 to give each battery 6 guns.
So, unless he was injured, he would have ended up in one of these batteries.

27 minutes ago, alyson1985 said:

you're in Maidstone - my parents live in Staplehurst

Only been here since 1982, can't seem to leave.

[PRC]

I don't know if it adds much but 88695 Gunner Horace Arthur Walker was serving with "D" Battery, 48th Brigade, when he died of wounds on the 24th September 1915. He is buried at Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/150138/horace-arthur-walker/

Lijssenthoek was then in the Ypres salient. "During the First World War, the village of Lijssenthoek was situated on the main communication line between the Allied military bases in the rear and the Ypres battlefields. Close to the Front, but out of the extreme range of most German field artillery, it became a natural place to establish casualty clearing stations. The cemetery was first used by the French 15th Hopital D'Evacuation and in June 1915, it began to be used by casualty clearing stations of the Commonwealth forces." https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/14900/lijssenthoek-military-cemetery/

That date would tie in with the second attack on Bellewarde Ridge.

The Lijssenthoek website records he "Died of gunshot wounds to the head, right thigh and right leg, n°17 CCS". http://www.lijssenthoek.be/en/address/4028/-horace-arthur-walker.html

Walker is in the Official Casualty List in the edition of The Times dated October 13th, 1915. A check of R.F.A. other ranks recorded as wounded in the same list doesn't bring up anyone with a five digit service number starting 88, but that may just be a timing issue. Hopefully the war diary will help confirm whether he was the first combat casualtu of the Brigade, and indeed if it was their first time in action.

Cheers,
Peter