Harry Ainscough, Private in Army Service Corps WW1 - help please

[Alpineted]

8 hours ago, kenf48 said:

M2/188895 Holland attested under the Derby or Group Scheme in December 1915.  He would not be given a number at this stage.

He was mobilised to Grove Park on the 19th June 1916 and embarked Devonport on the 14th July 1916 , eventually arriving at Durban which was the entry port for the East Africa Campaign, he moved up to Nairobi where he was admitted to hospital in September 1916.  He also suffered from malaria.  His first posting is listed as East African Expeditionary Force (Spares).  In effect Army troops used as a relief driver etc until acclimatised.

He was taken on the strength of 648 M.T. Company on the 12th June 1917.

There is no guarantee of course that Pte Ainscough followed the same route but the corroborating family story is persuasive.

M2/188892 attested January 1916 (extended Derby Scheme) to Grove Park 19th June 1916

M2/188837 also attested under the Derby Scheme and was mobilised to Grove Park on the 19th June 1916. He was posted to France on the 25th July 1916.

I think we can say Pte Ainscough was mobilised to Grove Park on or around 19th/20th June 1916.

I do not believe the fragment Russ found relates to 7 Coy ASC in France but more likely a fragment of Part II Daily Orders at Grove Park or other ASC Depot.

Most of these were destroyed in the Arnside Warehouse fire in 1940 but unlike Ancestry FMP has indexed these fragments.

Thank you all for information and suggestions, I have been busy reading this all day. 

 

I was interested to read about Grove Park - Harry Ainscough lived in Southport and during my reading today 'Sefton looking back' - historic images, I saw several images of an ASC depot at Crosby Road South, Seaforth (which is about 10-15 miles away from his home) .... I thought that perhaps he had been stationed there? Or perhaps carried out initial training before moving on to Grove Park?   

[Alpineted]

21 hours ago, RussT said:

In FMP in their British Army Service Records. Normally it is advisable to search with the least amount of detail as possible conducive to not getting too many results - and make plenty of use of the wild-card "*".

Here is the link to the search/result page - he is first on the result list.

Search Results for British Army Service Records | findmypast.co.uk

Russ

I will give this search method a good try - thanks Russ - fingers crossed!

[Alpineted]

8 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

Dai I think you might be thinking of the DM2.

If the East Africa connection is correct then you might like to get a copy of 'East Africa by Motor Lorry: Recollections of an ex-motor transport driver' copies available on Amazon but please use the link above.

I would be interested in getting a copy of the book you mention, but cannot see the link you mention... Sorry, I have followed a few links today, so it may well be me ?

 

[Alpineted]

6 hours ago, Chris_Baker said:

I note that M2/188895 F. W. A. Holland sailed from Devonport on 14 July 1916, landing at Kilindini in East Africa on 20 August 1916. Good chance that Harry was with him. He was not with a company at that time, but was one of a draft of men. Holland was often ill, mainly malaria, and later (August 1917) served with 648 MT Company but it is not clear from his record whether he was with a company before this.

Thanks for this Chris - with all of the help and information given to me I feel we are building a clear picture about Harry. Thank you 

 

[Matlock1418]

On 31/03/2024 at 20:48, Alpineted said:

I can see that Harry was awarded 8 shillings, between 17/10/19 and 27/4/20 but I cannot tell if that is payable weekly or monthly.

Under the prevailing 1919 Royal Warrant this 8/- was a weekly pension [representing for a pension Class V soldier / Pte the 20% degree of disability rate - We can see this confirmed by the associated 3/MA/1337 pension ledger page, for malaria]

I'm rather surprised it's only 8/- pw because as a married man he would have been entitled to proportionate pension allowances for his wife and children and, still under the 1919 RW, we can see these later additionally being indicated on the reverse of the plp [2/- + 1/6 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 5/10pw].

On 31/03/2024 at 20:48, Alpineted said:

Finally, this card has a black triangle on the top right hand side

This is not a 'black triangle' - it is where the corner of the card has been cut off, representing a dead claim

M

[Matlock1418]

On 31/03/2024 at 20:48, Alpineted said:

What does ‘due to 20%’ mean in practice and how long would it apply?

20% is the judged degree of disability attributed to or aggravated by service at that date - [or a potentially varied quantum up/down at a later date] and would determine the weekly pension which would last as long as it was deemed appropriate due to disability, potentially for life for man & his wife [@ relevant % rate].  For children their individual proportionate [@ relevant % rate] allowances would potentially continue to age 16y. 

Typically when c.10% or less there is a potentiality for a final gratuity one-off payment but we cannot see this on the rear of the plp.

The 1919 RW continued until 1946. 

His full MoP awards file appears lost/likely deliberately destroyed as most were once use was passed.

M

[Michelle Young]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/East-Africa-Motor-Lorry-Recollections/dp/1913294439
(other booksellers are available) 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Alpineted said:

I was interested to read about Grove Park - Harry Ainscough lived in Southport and during my reading today 'Sefton looking back' - historic images, I saw several images of an ASC depot at Crosby Road South, Seaforth (which is about 10-15 miles away from his home) .... I thought that perhaps he had been stationed there? Or perhaps carried out initial training before moving on to Grove Park? 

Grove Park would have been where he was called up to, and where he would have undergone basic MT training.
Thereafter, without knowing which MT Company he was in ,and for how long, it's almost impossible to guess where he went after that.

With regard to the East African connection, Michael Young lists in his book (with data from WO09/5494), about 15 ASC units, many of which were unnumbered. There were 2 ammuniton columns, supply trains (all unnumbered)  , motor ambulance convoys (618, 626 & 699 Coys.), Brigade supply columns (635 & 570), a base MT depot (599), 3 normal MT companies(631 & 635, plus an unnumbered Auxiliaryu  MT Coy.), a field butchery, a Bullock Cart Train and an Armoured Motor Battery & Workshop (all unnumbered).

It sounds like a chaotic campaign, with organisation to match. Young quotes an entry in the war diaries for 570 Coy in 1916 as saying the CO couldn't locate more than half of the company's lorries!

If you want to consunt the diaries, they seem to be lumped together at the National Archive under the box numbers:

WO95/ 5324, 5325, 5338, 5342, 5346, 5371, 5377 & 5378

They aren't digitized...

 

[kenf48]

5 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

It sounds like a chaotic campaign, with organisation to match. Young quotes an entry in the war diaries for 570 Coy in 1916 as saying the CO couldn't locate more than half of the company's lorries!

If you want to consunt the diaries, they seem to be lumped together at the National archives 

They aren't digitized...

 

570  Company war diary is available for download 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/c42422b75a86421db8d6996e816500e4

But you’re right they are all over the place and even that one is for just two months May- June 1916

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

7 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

570  Company war diary is available for download 

Apologies. I didn't realise that they were now available.

[RussT]

20 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Young quotes an entry in the war diaries for 570 Coy in 1916 as saying the CO couldn't locate more than half of the company's lorries!

Perhaps von Lettow-Vorbeck and his mates were scurrying around in them 

The book "Tip & Run" (Author - Edward Paice) was a good read - to give a general overview of the East African campaign.

[Alpineted]

29 minutes ago, RussT said:

Perhaps von Lettow-Vorbeck and his mates were scurrying around in them 

The book "Tip & Run" (Author - Edward Paice) was a good read - to give a general overview of the East African campaign.

This sounds a good book for me Russ, as before making this post, I have to say I didn’t know anything about the East African Campaign - a trip to the library for me this week! Thank you

[Gardenerbill]

2 hours ago, Alpineted said:

I would be interested in getting a copy of the book you mention, but cannot see the link you mention... Sorry, I have followed a few links today, so it may well be me ?

 

There used to be a link to Amazon somewhere on the forum home page and if you used it the forum received a small commission. I'm on my phone so I can't check, but if you go direct to Amazon and do a search for the title, copies of the book are available.

[RussT]

16 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

There used to be a link to Amazon somewhere on the forum home page and if you used it the forum received a small commission.

But no longer ...

[Alpineted]

Thank you for this Chris, as you say, a good chance that Harry was with F.W.A. Holland at that time.... I cannot understand why Harry's service records M2/18895 cannot be found, while Holland, just several service numbers apart M2/188895 are 'in the system'. Do you think Harry may have been in 648 MT Company?

 

Coincidentally, I have just found out that Harry's brother in law Percy James Wadsworth, born in Yorkshire in 1887 also served in the Army Service Corps.  
Harry's family and Percy's family lived together at 31 Devonshire Road, Southport and it would appear to me that they enlisted to the Army Service Corps together in March 1916, although Percy served in France - in Unit 1. CAV.DIV.Supply Col (and died in February 1919 in Military hospital in Southport). Percy's service number was M2/184322. He attested on 14th March 1916 and went to Grove Park on 5th June 1916 (where was he between those dates I wonder?) I believe he was in France between 29th July 1916 and 13th January 1919)
I note that Percy's service records and hospital notes etc are also available online (like F.W.A Holland) and I wonder if me not being able to find Harry's service records (i.e. ASC M2/188890) online is due to 'bad luck' or perhaps my poor searching skills?

Also, do you think there may be War Diaries for Percy's Company please?

 

Thanks for your help

Kind Regards

 

Lin
 

[kenf48]

29 minutes ago, Alpineted said:

Thank you for this Chris, as you say, a good chance that Harry was with F.W.A. Holland at that time.... I cannot understand why Harry's service records M2/18895 cannot be found, while Holland, just several service numbers apart M2/188895 are 'in the system'. Do you think Harry may have been in 648 MT Company?

Many have tried but no-one has found any definitive evidence as to how the documents were stored in the Arnside Warehouse nor how the recovery operation was conducted in the immediate aftermath.

I think the best is probably they were on open shelves and the vagaries of Fire and Water used to extinguish the flames led to many anomalies.  Afaik there has never been a consecutive run of numbers found.

In any event Pte Holland's records were stored elsewhere in what are known as the 'unburnt' or 'pension records'

Find My Past does not differentiate between this set of records and the 'burnt records' whereas Ancestry does

See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/how-to-find-a-soldiers-service-record/

As previously posted and ignored I gave a link to the East Africa diaries at TNA I could not find one for Pte Holland's 648 Company  which I also posted but you may care to look.

They are chronologically incomplete and there are just twenty or so pages for the Divisional Supply train.

[Alpineted]

Apologies Ken, I did not intentionally ignore your link, I would always respond to thank help and advice given, as I am very appreciative of it - I must not have knowingly read it and/or 'taken it in' at the time. My only defence is that I am not in good health and 'dip in and out' when I am able.

Please note that I am grateful to all advice offered, it is helpful to me at this time and I apologise for ignoring the link you sent - be assured I will follow that up today. 

Thank you also for the How to find a soldier link.

Once again please accept my apologies and thanks

Lin

[Alpineted]

On 01/04/2024 at 12:06, kenf48 said:

M2/188895 Holland attested under the Derby or Group Scheme in December 1915.  He would not be given a number at this stage.

He was mobilised to Grove Park on the 19th June 1916 and embarked Devonport on the 14th July 1916 , eventually arriving at Durban which was the entry port for the East Africa Campaign, he moved up to Nairobi where he was admitted to hospital in September 1916.  He also suffered from malaria.  His first posting is listed as East African Expeditionary Force (Spares).  In effect Army troops used as a relief driver etc until acclimatised.

He was taken on the strength of 648 M.T. Company on the 12th June 1917.

There is no guarantee of course that Pte Ainscough followed the same route but the corroborating family story is persuasive.

M2/188892 attested January 1916 (extended Derby Scheme) to Grove Park 19th June 1916

M2/188837 also attested under the Derby Scheme and was mobilised to Grove Park on the 19th June 1916. He was posted to France on the 25th July 1916.

I think we can say Pte Ainscough was mobilised to Grove Park on or around 19th/20th June 1916.

I do not believe the fragment Russ found relates to 7 Coy ASC in France but more likely a fragment of Part II Daily Orders at Grove Park or other ASC Depot.

Most of these were destroyed in the Arnside Warehouse fire in 1940 but unlike Ancestry FMP has indexed these fragments.

Hi Ken, 

I have just read this information, I do not know how I missed it when you first posted it. The details you have provided are very helpful - thank you. 

I mentioned in an earlier post today that I have just found out that I believe Harry joined the Army Service Corps at the same time as his brother in law Percy James Wadsworth M2/184322, he arrested on 14th March 1916.

I note that there was an ASC depot/base in Seaforth, Liverpool. As Harry and Percy lived in Southport, might they have had initial training at Seaforth, prior to transfer to Grove Park do you think? 

 

Thank you (albeit it belated) once again Ken

 

Lin

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Alpineted said:

He attested on 14th March 1916 and went to Grove Park on 5th June 1916 (where was he between those dates I wonder?)

Almost certainly at home, in his usual occupation, getting things sorted before he received hs invitation to join up at Grove Park.

[Alpineted]

Thank you for this Dai Bach -  this is new information to me - I thought that once attested, they would leave home straight away.  I am going to be able to build up a time line for Harry's service now, with this as the start line!

 

Thanks again 

 

Lin

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, Alpineted said:

He attested on 14th March 1916 and went to Grove Park on 5th June 1916 

To put it into historical context, the Military Service Act 1916 introduced conscription of single men between the ages of 18 and 41 and normally resident in Great Britain.  The Act came into force on the 2nd March 1916.  Married men were exempt from the provisions of the Act, there was however a continuing social and moral pressure for married men to attest.  Only attested men could appeal to the Local Tribunal for exemption from military service.  It was soon realised that the number of single men was insufficient and in May 1916 the Act was amended to include married men.   The first to go were those who had previously attested and as a consequence were in the Army Reserve 'B'.

As previously noted 

1 hour ago, Alpineted said:

I note that there was an ASC depot/base in Seaforth, Liverpool. As Harry and Percy lived in Southport, might they have had initial training at Seaforth, prior to transfer to Grove Park do you think? 

No. His service record shows Percy attested on the 14th March 1916 and was mobilised on the 5th June 1916 and posted to Grove Park the same day.  In all likelihood he would have received a rail warrant with his mobilisation papers and been instructed to report to Grove Park

Reading his service record and the correspondence from his widow was a reflection of her sorrow. It seems he was a victim of the influenza pandemic.

3 hours ago, Alpineted said:

Also, do you think there may be War Diaries for Percy's Company please?

The war diary for 1st Cavalry Division Ammunition Park (45 Company ASC) can be downloaded from TNA for free if you register

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351423

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

3 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Afaik there has never been a consecutive run of numbers found.

For some reason, the run of numbers either side of my grandfather's ASC number have a very high incidence for survival of the records.

Of the 20 either side of his number, so 40 numbers in all, 28 records survive (if a bit charred around the edges) - 25 in the burnt series and 3 additional ones in the unburnt series. So a 70% record survival rate.

This could just be a random quirk of statistics, I haven't looked much further, but bearing in mind that the usual figure quoted for record survival is between 20-40%, this bunch of records has a far higher records survival rate.

With regards to this series, there is a run of 5 consecutive records, and a run of 19 out of 25 (76 %).

[Alpineted]

.... Just unfortunate then that it's 'my' record that is burnt !