Rededication service for Serjeant John Harold Bott DCM of 11th Battalion The Royal Fusiliers

[Ancre1917]

Thanks Charlie. I agree with M - he’s unlikely to have died on 2 April, but how did he get to Écoust St Mein if his battalion was defending Bullecourt. The former was garrisoned by 2/6 battalion North Staffs. His likely date of death is when he went missing on 21 March. It doesn’t seem feasible that he wouldn’t have been found in the 12 days between 21 March and 2 April if he was still alive. 
What should we do with this information now?  Would CWGC be interested in changing his record?  If they would, how would I make a submission?  Any advice gratefully received. 
Richard

[charlie2]

On 25/03/2024 at 21:45, LDT006 said:

Found dead on the battlefield at ??? railwaystation Ecoust St. Mein ??? railwaytracks, buried grave 4  on 2.4.18".

It doesn't state wich cemetery but the text is the same for others on the same page, so it might be possible to find the cemetery if one of these has been identified.

If you look at the ICRC record PA29098 for Jones G, it is reasonable to assume he was buried in the next grave to Bott on the railway embankment, which agrees with the map reference where Bott was concentrated from.  https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/04/01/C_G1_E_04_01_0146/C_G1_E_04_01_0146_0101.JPG/4

I presume Bott‘s entry in „Soldiers Effects“ which records his death was accepted between 21st March and 2nd April has been seen.
In my opinion it would be unreasonable to assume that he survived the 21st, he was probably dead by early afternoon. It is quite obvious to me at least, that his body was found during the clearing up sometime before the 2nd April. By the 2nd April the German Army was over the hills and far away.

Where he was found suggests that he was with the 6th Bn but he could equally have become separated from the 5th, and made his way towards Ecoust. As it is not known where he was at the start of the attack it can only remain a guess how he got to the station.

Charlie
 

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Ancre1917 said:

What should we do with this information now?  Would CWGC be interested in changing his record?  If they would, how would I make a submission?  Any advice gratefully received. 

If you feel you have enough evidence to make a reasonable case than you can just write including all your evidence and rationale to the CWGC enquiries desk, enquiries@cwgc.org , and ask for it to be forwarded to whoever in Commemorations.

The trouble may be that CWGC may be reluctant to change without hard documented evidence and a ICRC PoW records seems the hardest we currently have [regardless of how implausible it might rather seem] and if only with weak 'evidence'/interpretation will likely be particularly reluctant to change his headstone on cost grounds.

But that is not intended to try to stop you if you feel it is worth an approach to them.

M

[Ancre1917]

I'll have a go at putting a submission for a date of death change to CWGC.  This is the evidence I could use.  If anyone can add anything else, please let me know.

Evidence that the correct date of death for 242571 Pte HE Bott 2nd/5th North Staffordshire Regiment was between 21 March and 2 April 1918

1. Existing CWGC record shows: 

date of death as 2 April 1918; 

place of burial HAC cemetery Écoust St Mein France VII.C.1

2. ICRC record from German sanitation company shows:

his dead body was found on the battlefield near railway line at Écoust St Mein; he was not a POW

he was buried by them on 2 April 1918 in Grave 4 at  57b. U27.C.2.6 along with four unknown soldiers all of whom were listed as 6th battalion North Staffordshire Regiment;

two of the bodies were identified by the Germans as Lt. A Jarvis and 50702 Pte JW Bannister both from the Staffords in the former case and North Staffordshire Regiment for the latter;

the CWGC show the date of death of Lt Jarvis and Pte Bannister as 21 March 1918; (Lt Jarvis is shown as Lt. J. Jarvis on CWGC - there is no other CWGC record of another Lt Jarvis for South or North Staffordshire Regiments); Lt. John Jarvis MIC shows he was missing on 21 March 1918

3. Pte Bott's MOP pension record shows:

Pte Bott was missing on 21 March 1918

4. Pte Bott's Soldier's effects

Pte Bott's soldier’s effects record shows he died between 21 March and 2 April 1918

5. War diaries for 2^nd/6^th and 5^th battalions North Staffordshire Regiment show they were overrun by the Germans on 21 March as they defended Écoust St Mein and Bullecourt; it would be unlikely that he would have survived alive on the battlefield between 21 March and 2 April 1918.

Apart from Bott's soldiers effects record, I have documentary evidence for everything else

Is there anything I can add to strengthen the case?  Does it make a case for a date of death change?

Richard

 

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, Ancre1917 said:

Apart from Bott's soldiers effects record, I have documentary evidence for everything else

Just emphasising to hopefully get you a copy of his Register of Soldiers' Effects [sorry I can't add]

10 minutes ago, Ancre1917 said:

Is there anything I can add to strengthen the case?  Does it make a case for a date of death change?

21 March 1918 does seem to have particular resonance under the circumstance

I can't really tell if your evidence and case will cut the mustard with CWGC [only they will - and I have significanlty lost much of my faith in understanding their logic (based on a recent non-comm refusal)] ... but if not prepared to offer a single date then CWGC do have others with 'Died between' dates.

You've done most of the work = So why not let CWGC decide?

M

[Ancre1917]

I’ll just hang on for a few days to see if the register and any other primary sources appear. Thanks for all your input everyone  

Richard

[Ancre1917]

Might it be worth one of the mods breaking this into separate topics, one for each brother?  I don’t think I can do this myself  

Richard

[Matlock1418]

On 28/03/2024 at 17:14, Ancre1917 said:

I’ll just hang on for a few days to see if the register and any other primary sources appear.

Sorry it is only a very much in-haste poor camera screen-grab from my local library - Here's Henry Ernest BOTT, 242571, North Staffordshire Regt's RoSE entry

Image thanks to Ancestry

For date/ circumstances of death it reads: 21.3, 2.4.18 Officially accepted

So not conclusive - though one could perhaps read as two date entries and that first one might possibly be helpful ???

M

Edited 10 April by Matlock1418
21.3

[Ancre1917]

Thanks M. It’s a more positive record than the one given now that says 2 April - the date of his burial  Do you think the “officially accepted “ quote referred to the date they thought he died or the date his date of death was accepted  by whoever as there is a comma between 21/3 and 2/4/18?

Richard

[Matlock1418]

54 minutes ago, Ancre1917 said:

Do you think the “officially accepted “ quote referred to the date they thought he died or the date his date of death was accepted  by whoever as there is a comma between 21/3 and 2/4/18?

In a positive frame of mind I'd likely be reading 2.4.18 as the date accepted but I cannot be definitive as to what whoever wrote it was thinking or intended.

The range provided fits with the circumstances - he must have been dead by the latter date, but exactly when before still seems unproven [well at least not definitively documented].

M

Edited 10 April by Matlock1418

[Ancre1917]

Pessimism of the mind, optimism of the heart maybe!

We can live in hope!

Richard

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Sorry it is only a very much in-haste poor camera screen-grab from my local library - Here's Henry Ernest BOTT, 242571, North Staffordshire Regt's RoSE entry

Image thanks to Ancestry

For date/ circumstances of death it reads: 21.3, 2.4.18 Officially accepted

So not conclusive - though one could perhaps read as two date entries and that first one might possibly be helpful ???

M

Just an update to show the real image courtesy Ancestry:

[Ancre1917]

Thanks for this. It makes the dates a lot clearer

Richard

[charlie2]

I think people are trying to read something into the dates that isn‘t there. His death has been accepted as being between 21st March ( the day he was last known to be alive) and 2nd April ( the day he was buried).
The CWGC is not consistent with how it records such cases, sometimes the date the person was last seen alive is given, sometimes the date the body was found or as in this case between two dates. I have previously asked for a date of death to be amended supported by a definite date of death from German sources. They changed the recorded date of death to between they date they already had and the date I supplied.

Charlie

[Ancre1917]

If they did that, Charlie, I would say I had a result. 
Richard

[charlie2]

3 hours ago, Ancre1917 said:

If they did that, Charlie, I would say I had a result. 
Richard

Richard

Give it a try, good luck.

Charlie

Edited 10 April by charlie2